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Re: Code of Conduct Proposal

by
Ermin Trevisan
- 28/10/2017 08:30:14

I'm flabbergasted.....


On 10/28/17 1:26 PM, Andreas Becker wrote:

Hi Fabien

Thanks for that Code of Conduct which was since years overdue on the Odoo Mailingliste. Finally it is here now - very good!


Unfortunately some important points seem to be missing, perhaps you could add them to the list. I write the comments in the line for better understandings.


Odoo Mailing Lists - Code of Conduct

Introduction

The Odoo community lists are for enthusiast users, partners and developers who want to have constructive discussions about Odoo. As the lists have thousands of subscribers, this code of conduct aim to ensure quality discussion.

We Strive To:

Be friendly and patient

1. If someone asks for help it is because they need it. Politely suggest specific documentation or more appropriate venues where appropriate. Avoid aggressive or vague responses.

This should be standard. To start with i suggest that you add a welcome part on top and a greeting part on the bottom on each message. It mages the tone of each thread much better and also shows to the outside, that the Odoo community is “different” in tone since the code of conduct has been introduced.


Hi All
I hope you are fine …


Kind regards
Andi

Civilized Open Source Communities have this since long time already in place and it works out just great!

2. We all want to live in a positive and friendly environment. Negative behaviors, non-constructive critics are not allowed.

The best way to achieve that is to force that everybody is using his real name and no more hiding behind an alias, fake or phantasize name. If people mean it honest with their criticism, comments and help they actually would not need to hide at all.


Be civil and considerate

1. Disagreement is no excuse for poor conduct or personal attacks. A community where people feel uncomfortable is not a productive one.

This is the most hard part to achieve as to many people are simply not ready to receive criticism. They often not even realize that it would be for their best to listen! But also here the REAL NAME policy would help a lot to force people who write here on the list to show at least their identity and no more hiding. You are not hiding, I am not hiding and many others are honest and don’t hide behind a fake identity. Therefore I would suggest that instead of people letting to show their name you add to each singe post their real name by default - this would even be able easily to enforce on site of Odoo S.A.

Assume good faith

1. Remember that technical questions may be very complex. If you disagree, please do so politely, by disputing factual premises rather than by attacking individuals.

Just yesterday I discussed with customers (an agency) about that fact how the communication Leven on Open Source Mailingliste has decreased especially on those who get used a lot by hard core developers. Often they don’t allow anymore “stupid questions” or let’s say questions from starters and beginners. Comments like “Use Google Search” “Read the Manual” “Learn how to code” etc should be banned from any of those lists as they don’t provide any help. Instead much better would be to send people a link to a specific search result which helps at Google, or a screenshot of the marked part inside a manual which might be relevant or simply teach people the missing part of coding, so that next time they would be able to do it by themselves. People who write comments like those mentioned above often were in the same situation years ago and were very happy to receive friendly help by others. But unfortunately many of them change their attitude to the worst after their business gets up an running well and they fear that others could take over their position and perhaps even the lead.

2. If something seems outrageous, check that you did not misinterpret it. Ask for clarification, rather than assuming the worst.

This is a point unfortunately is often not followed by yourself Fabien. Many times people here on the list ask for verification ions, ask for important facts which only can be provided by Oddo S.A. and nothing, absolutely nothing comes as an answer. I would suggest that you improve your Oddo S.A. communication towards community members! This would help a lot to also keep people in that community and not moving to forks which provide what the people are looking for.

  1. a clear roadmap which also gets followed with new releases (no more hiding, no more not fulfilling of promises made from presentations which people are awaiting since many years i.e. mobile interface for Oddo CE etc.
  2. timely responses to questions only the Core people can answer in that case Oddo S.A
    - Respond promptly to people who have concerns … (
    https://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc1855.txt 2.1.1)

Respect time and attention

1. List members are busy people. So, we value concision and clarity. Emails that are brief and to the point take more time to write, but are repaid many times over when other members of the list make the same effort.

This is a very good point and I think many people don’t know actually how powerful the Oddo Mailing List is, as it provides even the possibility to add clarifying screenshots and formatting.

2. Avoid talking about the same topics several times, or hijacking other’s threads.

The problem is often caused by the fact that the mail programs of people are not ready for responses to Oddo Mailing List Posts. They appear in the mailbox of many mail programs and when you click Response and “RE:” gets added to the same thread or even a “FW:”. If Odoo program would eliminate those prefixes properly threads would stay much better in line with each other, otherwise with each new response of those people a new thread gets opened, which is than causing the existing thread chaos!

3. New members are welcome, but should be careful to respect the time and energy of long-time list members by doing research before asking questions.

It is wrong to assume that new members are new members only to ask “stupid questions” like mentioned above already. Very often they have already done research and even more often they actually were afraid of asking earlier as some comments here on the mailing list probably sounded to them as the people here are completely over the top and snobby and if you are not able to speak their language be prepared to get a heard feedback. It is not only a problem of the Oddo Mailing List unfortunately. Long time members should be much more patient with those future generations of developers which might take over their skills and will be able to help the seniors later on to create an even better product. New members are a source of new wind, sometimes also storms but that is great as it is the wind of change needed for every product which like to stay ready for the future needs.


4. Provide extra valuable information or question in every answer. (e.g. avoid just “Thank you” or “+1” emails)

Oddo has actually a feature which could avoid that very easily. You only would need to add the rating to the posts and then people can like posts and show their reports. Those likes are often a great help for people who are looking for solutions. Have a look to places like stack exchange etc. or places in the Wordpress community etc, which have implemented all of it since long time. i.e. the WPMUDEV Community.

Respect the topics

1. Conversations should remain focused and on-topic. If you must change the topic, start a new thread by changing the topic line of your emails. Avoid flooding the list with long threads by reading the entire thread first, instead of responding quickly to many emails in a short period of time.

Like mentioned already above many new topics which are actually only the old ones could be avoided by implementing a simple feature to ignore RE: FW: etc. The second point you are mentioning here is only possible with education and your way is the way a typical westerner is thinking. I had to learn that too. The point is that many people don’t summarize their comments in one answer which might be a bit longer, but instead respond to each single post with very short answers. When you now need to find those posts it is very very hard on the Oddo Mailing List which gets listed also on the Oddo Website. I think Oddo S.A. should improve how those threads get listed on the Oddo Website and open them by default. Right now you have to search in multiple sub-branches of one post to find perhaps an answer. A feature like “That solved my problem” would also be very helpful and if that would even move up that “Solution” to the top and gets a high rating by others which can verify that the solution is working - even better.

2. You can not use these mailing lists to advertise your services, commercial offers or discuss about other software than Odoo. New modules and features can be announced on the “Announces” mailing list only.

A very important point in my opinion and there fore I would recommend to no more allow all those company footers which get published time by time or simply stripping them off. It is not easy to do that - I know! Having no more 10 - 20 lines at the end of a post would make also all posts much shorter and much easier to read. Unfortunately it would be also a feature Odoo S.A. has to take care of as long as Odoo S.A. is allowing responses by Mail. Responses with Mail normally contain in the footer the standard footer of the people posting (like ours often gets posted to when I forget to delete that part. Most people here not even take the time to think about deleting that footer part from their mails.) The problem could be solved by a feature which would compare those footer parts with the parts posted with a post and deleting those.

In order to

      ensure that people know who you are, be sure to include a line

      or two at the end of your message with contact information.
(
https://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc1855.txt 2.1.1)

    - If you include a signature keep it short.  Rule of thumb

      is no longer than 4 lines.  Remember that many people pay for

      connectivity by the minute, and the longer your message is,

      the more they pay.

3. Don’t use the list to report copyright or licenses infringements, report issues to legal@odoo.com instead.

This is a point I would say is not enough explained. and actually not what has been said in the documents you oriented your policies on.

i.e. https://opensource.org/codeofconduct/licensing
1 Remember that licensing questions are often very complex and difficult to assess. If you disagree, please do so politely, by disputing logical errors and factual premises rather than by attacking individuals.

2 If something seems outrageous, check that you did not misinterpret it. Ask for clarification, rather than assuming the worst.

 Take i.e. the current discussion about copyright infringements of some Odoo like Clones or Forks like ERPNext and you brought in Flectra with their copyright problems which until now not really have been clarified with valid examples. Those examples ae important to know for Community Developers and Customers as no customer would like to purchase an Oddo Like Product and than get sued because of Copy right infringements by Clones, Forks or perhaps Oddo themselves as it has already mentioned that many code also Odoo S.A. is taking from other products.

A mail to your legal department is simply not sufficient to inform the community about possible infringements or coding problems. This is even more important as right now Code Hunter has announced to hunt even more copyright infringements in all of those Codes and for sure he won’t stop I guess by Clones or Forks as also the Odoo Code itself might be a source which could cause legal issues with others who own the copyrights.

Don't feed the trolls

1. Don't get involved in flame wars. Neither post nor respond to incendiary material.

Totally agree! But also this would be an educational process which can be solved very easily by enforcing a Real Name policy. I am present on many mailing lists in the Open Source communities and actually all of those who enforce the Real Names and also enforce the tone on how to write on the list with greeting and final regards on each post have absolute no problems with Trolls and flourish from the constructivism of their engaged members. They also welcome newcomers with open arms, no matter what qualification they have before their first post.

2. If you should find yourself in a disagreement with one person, make your responses to each other via mail rather than continue to send messages to the list or the group. 

Here is again a problem which actually Oddo S.A. could solve easily by avoiding to posts threads which contain already existing information. It is the nature of mailing lists that they get very soon very very long as with each new post all the past posts get posted again. Often we here respond to the people directly but unfortunately they than post again to the mailing list, which than also posts our content again their even it won’t meant for the mailing list but instead was a clear personal response to those people. Only an Oddo Filter could solve that properly.

If you are forwarding or re-posting a message you've received, do

      not change the wording.  If the message was a personal message to

      you and you are re-posting to a group, you should ask permission

      first.  (https://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc1855.txt 2.1.1)
Sometimes a person who

      asks you for help (or clarification) will send another message

      which effectively says "Never Mind".  Also make sure that any

      message you respond to was directed to you.  You might be cc:ed

      rather than the primary recipient. (https://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc1855.txt 2.1.1)

Be careful when addressing mail.  There are addresses which

      may go to a group but the address looks like it is just one

      person.  Know to whom you are sending.

    - Watch cc's when replying.  Don't continue to include

      people if the messages have become a 2-way conversation.

3. Avoid sending messages or posting articles which are no more than gratuitous replies to replies.

I explained in some points above already how actually ONLY Odoo S.A. could solve that problem by integrating a proper filter or only allow posting to lists via the Odoo so Forum itself. Otherwise you will simply not be able to enforce that!


Enforcement

Experienced members of the Odoo community comply with this code, not because of the existence of the code, but because they have long experience participating in communities where the conduct described above is normal and expected. However, failure to observe the code may be grounds for reprimand, probation, or removal from the lists.


This is a great idea but unfortunately in many cases won’t solve your problem at all, as especially removing people would result in the fact that they will post Odoo related Questions on many other places where Odoo itself has absolute no way to control it. Imagine only the copyright issues which have been brought up recently by many different people and if those would get discussed publicly. This will for sure also happen if answers by Odoo S.A. themselves would take again to much time and people got excluded already.


If you have concerns about someone’s conduct:

Direct contact: it is always appropriate to email a list member, mention that you think their behavior was out of line, and (if necessary) point them to this document.

On-list: discussing conduct on-list, either as part of another message or as a standalone thread, is always acceptable

This is the main problem as people will use exactly that On-List Conduct point to continue in their behavior like they have done it before. As they would argue that it was only an on-list conduct discussion which is always acceptable as Odoo S.A. said.

Moderators: You can reach the list moderators through community-mods@odoo.com



This policy was inspired by

https://opensource.org/codeofconduct/licensing

https://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc1855.txt




Kind regards

Andi

On Sat, Oct 28, 2017 at 3:46 PM, Fabien Pinckaers <fp@odoo.com> wrote:
Dear community,

Over the years, the quality of the discussions on the community list has decreased. The best
Odoo contributors are less active on the list, and we start to see more disrespectful behaviors
or comments. As a result, the number of subscribers does not grow as the unsubscription rate
is high.

In order to increase the quality on the discussions, we propose a "Code of Conduct", as well
as a restructure of the mailing lists by center of interests. More information in this document:

Please make your suggestions in the Google Doc directly.

We will review every recommendation and make a final version of the code of conduct. Once
done, we will restructure the mailing list and ask everyone to resubscribe in order to accept the
new rules.

With a strong community, Odoo is stronger. This code of conduct will be the foundation to
improve community's interaction.

-- 
Fabien

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