Community mailing list archives
Re: Odoo 11 Enterprise price 5x increased - we should be realistic about free marketby
Dear NhomarWhy are you always trying to bash people and companies?Why don't you simply start opening a bit your horizon to the Real Open Source Spirit, which actually Fabien also often brings up again.You named the main problem and this was the License Change from AGPL to LGPL after the License Change from GPLto AGPLThe first one was done, because Odoo realized that many people are developing better modules then theirs on top of tinyerp bases and lots of them had even private repositories with no way to have a look at it and to profit from that.By the way you just created more or less one more private repository ;-) which means enjoy the new system when it gets released and don't complain, that you were not able to see the progress as you had the chance to even participate. Anyway ...So the Change came and people who did not like that splitted and are still running their GPL brach which is meanwhile a very stable product you really should try by the way! Sad that you haven't already.I stayed with Odoo at that time, not listening like you to all those who wrote in pretty similar ways about how Odoo is actually developing in Future and sorry to say that but all of those comments can be proven as right meanwhile and believe me that is not the end.TinyERP was a great ideaName changes and great community wasn't a problem and even the Heath application got highly awarded and brought a huge push to this complete System - It was the time when we actually joined more intensive. Nevertheless we did not join Tryton as mentioned already even they took that pretty good and rewarded Health part away from Odoo. The reason to stay were two things.1. we did not like private repositories either, as we grew up in an Open Source community, doing software development and meanwhile we promote and live that Open Source Idea in many other areas too. Elon Musk well he has great ideas and no patents as said already as he won't need them, they would simply block his fast grow!Renault meanwhile is building a car on the Open Source Plattform we are promoting too.You only think about Money Money Money. Well be rich, be a good christian, be whatoever .... But living the Open Source Idea is not at all about Money. It is about Sharing! It is about inspiring! On reason why you can read often in any TYPO3 Source Code and system their slogan "Inspire to share"2. OdooS.A. is just doing the Opposite of that!Have a look to political systems which are a complete failure because people followed leaders, which enabled themselves but not at all their communities. Leaders which brought themselves up as the one and only everyone has to listen to, but which have forgotten all those who have simply more or less nothing and are starving for the profit of those leaders. Those leaders have been elected even, by people probably like you know them very well I guess. People which don't care about those who suffer! As you are located in South America with your company you can have a look what is happening since years in Venzuela. Perhaps you have been there already. Do you really want that Odoo ends up the same way? Unfortunately we are on the best way getting there.3. Bashing 73Lines for their code, TechRepresentatives the same and many others you bashed though all those past years and OK you mentioned that a huge Odoo Company or lets say South American Group stayed on Odoo 8 for many years - have a look where that ended up? Ask your customers where they ended up?I had a look to many templates build for Odoo and actually until now never bought one of 73Lines nor using the Educational System of TechRepresentatives as we did not had the request until now to do so, probably because we used already a system with excellent support and code build by Jay Vora's SerpentCS which until now simply did not brought up any customer to ask us to switch. Quality speaks for itself and don't need any bashing!It is unfortunately complete different with Odoo, as here since the LGPL license started we get more requests of companies to switch their system to CE but also they ask us more and more if Odoo CE is dying. Well it won't die but what happened you can see jsut perfect written down on the Flectra websiteWhat is Flectra?
Flectra is a fork of Odoo based on Odoo v11 with the goal of creating more technically and functionally strong product.I think you agree on that. The renamed it so it will not conflict with the Roadmap of Odoo, as their roadmap will be different from what Odoo's roadmap is and FSF actually promotes to rename Forks.Why did you fork Odoo?
We have been following Odoo since quite long time. During the time we found many technical shortcomings in current Odoo structure which should be taken care to achieve a technically and functionally strong product.Follow that discussion have a look at all those past discussions where until now only ONE one ONLY critic was left over who always when "Andi" says something has to go into a war time state I guess. Never mind I am meanwhile used to that.Technical Shortcomings: Well we got just verified by comments even in that thread by people who even support Odoo that this has to be improved on Odoo siteVerticallization is needed but Odoo is a Lego. Actually OCA was trying to get some kind of verticallization done but until now there is no stable vertical product. The only really great vertical product which had ever been developed during the history of Odoo was the heath system and that went 100% over to Tryton ;-*(As TechReprsentative is one of those named openly on the Flectra site, I could guess that their educational stuff goes in such a verticalization. I have no problem with that as our customers would see probably the system they are using right now also going in their. There is absolut no problem to have 2 great systems in the same base ;-)
- Track all third party software included in your distribution and the license type, and keep it up to date. Consider each addition carefully, examining the risks and the benefits.We have lots of Tourist and Hotels and Restaurants which are interested, so since years we use some kind of set already to get that up and running. But it takes a huge amount of time to always again and again first clean Odoo from all parts Odoo S.A.has left over. Wasted time. Yes we use modules which are great doing that and always give feedback when we discover a change in the code of Odoo so that their linked stuff shows up again. To b e honest it is a total timewaster and stupid game. In WP we simply deactivate all that stuff - finished.In TYPO3 it is not even existing! and they make really good cash by the way!Why Fork when there is Odoo Community Backport (OBC) by Odoo Community Association ( OCA )?
OCA is doing great work by bringing all great brains and ideas together and providing them with a platform. The real problem is end customers and integrators with a limited resources who does not have money to spend on development, bug fixes and going to various developers for doing most out of box features.
People do contribute in OCA, but they do not continue. We do not blame them for that. It is the financial aspect wherein things go out of hands. After inception Odoo's app store and paid apps, developers started "price tagging" their efforts instead of giving out under OCA umbrella. Don't believe us, see the numbers.Nhomar I hopw you will add your comments to that.People do contribute in OCA, but they do not continue.Nobody is blaming them. I left a highly paid directors positions of an international school because I did not like the way the company behind that school was making them richer and richer by providing not at all the services I as a director had actually to promote but my heart said sorry, I would have to lie to all those parents - so I quitted, with me 50% of the school quitted it went down to 20% left. No problem and I still have a great contact to the owner and we are helping each other actually. As there was a learning process on both sides. The idea behind Odoo is great as the Montessori Idea which was behind that school. But the way it got executed and delivered to the customers (students,parents) was simply wrong and resulted in bad results and very "questionable standards", the same it is here at Odoo.If people feel happy with a system and feel happy with how things get communicated and led by leaders, then they will for sure never have problems at all - similar to the organization I had build up over 30 years ago in my hometown which had been honored even with a 4th price by the German government for best parent initiatives in Germany in 1989 - I worked for the idea and never asked for money but after months doing that the parents and other people realized that this had to change and so the Bosch Family and the company Diehl started supporting my effort. Yes it is often fighting against windmills but it is worth it. This organization employed someone which did not inherit the freedom I gave to that organization and it lost nearly 80% of their customers and the complete waiting list in only 6 months. So I intervened and suggested to put somebody I knew she could be the lead in place. Empowering others is very very important. I knew that she can do that work because she participated (not as an employee by the way) many years during the 3 years I was building up that organization. As said meanwhile it is over 30 years old, has a huge waitinglist got branched many times meanhwile even i have not a single penny profit out of it - but I am happy to have done exactly that what I have done.Odoo did actually the same many years ago, in their starting years but perhaps it was a problem of leadership. I stopped to lead that organization as I wanted to continue my studies and also to create more new initiatives, which I did. Always with the same goal - making yourself obsolete and empowering others.Most customers we have try to follow this way with their companies and organizations so they don't focus on MONEY, they focus on Quality, on Knowhow, and of course on creating new leaders which DONT focus on money but instead on people who are able to lead others to success so they can multiply their efforts.Coming back to Odoo have a look to what happened since the License Change to LGPLYou are absolut right with your statement that this was the breaking point where things were falling appart..There are many good projects under OCA umbrella; then there are projects which are no longer migrated to next version or just in abandoned state after couple of releases.Creating series of frustration and anger for end integrators and customers who had relied on it as a part of their solution. Which now became a bottleneck for them in moving forward.
We are following a straight forward approach and professional process to fit our and your need which differs from current OCA process.Have a look how many modules are marked as Version 10 or soon Version 11 modules and how many of them still have the code of Version 8 and before, which got no more maintained, which got abandonned I would say. And check the quality which unfortunately could not catch up with new developments, nor with Python 3 compatibility.Can I contribute in Flectra development?
Yes, once we make our first release, we will open our code for everyone to participate and build things on top of Flectra.I write to you here Nhomar to show you that you are invited to contribute. For sure they will honor you with a much more open communication, actually you can experience that already. Developers welcome, Ideas Welcome, Contributions welcome.The larger the codebase, the larger the potential for problems. Risks include (1) contributors without a signed Contributor License Agreement (CLA), (2) contributors without permission from their employer to make a contribution; and (3) contributors who introduce code they’ve taken from elsewhere.It looks also that they will implement coding standards which new contributions have to follow simply to avoid the problems which now exist in those mentioned Odoo repositories and its forks. I am sure they will also have a way that contributions will be not only checked before integration but als those who want to contribute will have perhaps to sign a CLA, simply to keep up the high standards they intend to implement in future as Odoo 11 is only the base and the start.How it will be different than Odoo ?
Hence our idea is to create a strong product which is advance technically and functionally; there will be many enhancements at core level among with a number of new functional features at the base system level.
They already apologized and were communicating with Odoo themselves as you can ready too. Their goal is not at all to harm Odoo, they much more like to get a full featured OdooCE which they had to rename to Flectra as Odoo is a brand name of Odoo S.A.
What will be migration policy? Just like Odoo, Paid migrations for Enterprise Customers?
One thing as a feature that we are confirming at the moment is INCLUDED FREE MIGRATION for all core modules. All the core modules will be self-migrating to the new version when there is a new version release.They actually don't hide anything but even offering customers a free migration. In other words it will have something like the upgrade path integrated and customers won't need to worry anymore about being no more up to date. Continues development can even be made possible.
- Consider the effort and expense of replacing the software should you encounter any issues. Can it be swapped out easily, or is it intimately entangled with your application?Many years Odoo customers CE and EE are waiting for that already and it never happened and the Upgrade Path Modul is nice but usually coming months years later - I know man power missing, or let's say motivation missing to fill the pockets of Odoo S.A. by getting more and more drawbacks in CE every year and now even targeting EE customers with pricing. (Interesting that people only talk about the 7 or 8% for existing customers and silently forget about all those new customers who have to cover that benefit for existing customers by paying a whole fortune more.What is the license for Flectra?
We will license Flectra based on LGPLv3, and we will accept all contributions in LGPLv3 or similar commercially permissive license.As they build on Odoo 11 which is already Python 3 (that is the reason why) theywill continue using LGPLv.3. Perhaps it should be made much clearer what would be allowed to do and not to do and what to integrate - i.e. by examples and for sure they are already working on that too.
- Consider the use of any GPL work in a closed source application very carefully. If your application can be considered and extension of the GPL work, you may be required to disclose your source. Seek counsel if your rights are in doubt.Every project starts with a first step, so their first step was simply to fork Odoo11CE and they are now working on the integration of EE like features and of much nicer features which you won't find in EE I guess, and for sure they will focus more on a verticalization than Odoo did - at least I think so as this is the actual demand of the market!I like Lego, but customers like to have a ready to use product and not a puzzle where they have to figure out what to do next.Will my Odoo modules work with Flectra ?
We are going to make a number of structural, technical changes along with namespace related changes which will make existing Odoo modules unusable without making minor to moderate changes to it. You may still be able to use around 80% of your existing code.That they will do a lot of rewriting and mostly cleaning up the mess you can see here on their statements. But Odoo EE and CE customers probably will like that 80% of their existing code will be able to be used.Will Flectra be available over SaaS?
SaaS-based offering is on our roadmap, and we will enable it gradually as we proceed, Our current priority is to build a solution which can be used On Cloud / On-Premise with ease.Right now they won't even compete with Odoo SAAS or PAAS Solutions.Where it is based ?
Flectra is currently based out of Singapore, we are soon going to start operations in Europe, USA, UK, Middle East and North Asia.On Wed, Oct 18, 2017 at 9:01 AM, Nhomar Hernández <firstname.lastname@example.org> wrote:Nhomar HernandezCEO Vauxoo.Site: http://vauxoo.comTwitter: @nhomarBlog: http://nhomar.comGithub User: https://github.com/nhomarOdoo Gold PartnerSkype: nhomar00 (Envia mail previo no lo superviso siempre).HangOut: email@example.comMóvil Venezuela:
+58 4144110269 (Telegram)Móvil México:
+52 1 4773933942 (Whatsapp)On Tue, Oct 17, 2017 at 8:05 PM, Juan Plaza <firstname.lastname@example.org> wrote:
In my vision the point is that Odoo S.A. is not transparent in this time, and started to cut Odoo CE without notice, it will be very different if we know what they going to do, but it's always a surprise, in the past was a surprise what´s they going to make better, now the expectation is what they going to cut from CE in the next version.
I think thats Flectra work is a good starting point to make something different, also I agree that Flectra can´t in any case copy or obfuscate the Odoo Entreprise code, they should be very strict with this if they want to be success in this new fork.
From time to time we see Open Source project that grow and get successful and then they turn their backs to the community, and that's the route I see that Odoo has taken. It´s Okay, it's their business, but what I can not understand is that, a part of the community, is so aggressive with a new fork, and I do not mean that the copy of enterprise code is acceptable, but the aggression started before we knew this.I think you do not get the point my dear collegue.mention another product here is not Ok! if you try to:1.- Make look bad to Odoo itself, even if it is not perfect, we know that, it is just improving.2.- The discussion started with the point of the price, then the discussion move to the forks (because it is cheaper?).3.- Then the discussion move to defend ourselves (yes they are hijacking not just Odoo SA, but OCA itself with stupid arguments, relicensing things).Then that fork is not a fork is a simple joke that most be avoided to be used as a disinformation strategy to the end customer or the new commers...On my honest PoV Fork whatever you want but not Hijacking this mailing list neither the licence with disinformation and false statements promoting the forks "I take what I want because I can".!That's why the community is stronger together.Regards!
I hope that Flectra can fix they mistakes and started I new good product for the community.
Juan Plaza@Nhomar, was silently reading your comments, but after you mentioned Tesla, cannot keep silent as I'm fan of Elon Musk =)@All, Obviously Odoo S.A. as company have issues. BTW, typical growth problems - no surprises here.And those who are for along time with OpenERP / Odoo we all aware of this. Do not be misleaded with aggressive comments.Most of Odoo Implementators here are overloaded with Odoo Projects and cannot respond to such long threads with their opinion =) Maybe just at the end of the day.Few examples of issues:1. Communication (with community, partners, customers) is definitely need to be improved. Good example is this mail thread.I even have theory that is reason is why Brussels is the capital of EU - they are politicians in their blood.But hey! Fabien now moved to US - they have different culture, and things are becoming better.Solution: That is not big problem as long as you know this and as long as Odoo strategy is not conflicting with your company strategy.At least my observations showed that their strategy is clear to me and not changing. For me important points in their strategy that not changingfor 3 years already: they will always focus on Product, not vertical solution + they will never go with native mobile apps. That is it. For me that means that we will not be competing, but helping each other.About Enterprise pricing - that is good point. Important that it was brought. Odoo as company still experimenting with business model.And I'm sure Fabien will think about it after such a big thread and make sure it is better stated in the contract. Remember that Enterprise contract sponsors development of the product.So we are all in same boat here and Fabien already provided his opinion (+~8% per year max for existing customers).2. Marketing - that comes from point 1. Odoo is advertised as ready to use product.But it is partial truth. Ready to use product should be very specific (talking about verticalization), but what Odoo is - it is a LEGO.You should build blocks properly first, before usage.Solution: After we formulated that for ourselves (about LEGO) and our customers, no hard discussions with customers anymore.Also movement to telling the truth about Odoo that I saw recently from Fabien I appreciate and this is good sign for me (for example, renaming Accounting to Invoicing in Odoo Community).That is REALLY invoicing - nothing more. Ask any accountant working with Odoo.Even Odoo Enterprise 10 users (real accountants) are "crying" now using it as accounting system. No jokes here - that is real feedback.Too much training needed.Let's not go deep into discussions about "hiding" features, that is not my point.3. Quality of Odoo Apps. It is really big problem. Quality is far below zero.Seems they were created to earn quick money and not thinking about future reputation. And not thinking about customer.And here I'm talking not only about quality of Odoo Apps, but about maturity of Odoo Implementators.Explanation is clear here - Odoo is young framework and company. They need bigger community and more partners.That is not a secret, Fabien mentioned this on one of previous Odoo Experience. Also he mentioned that after there will be enough weight,they will start struggling for quality among partners.And actually he started to do this, by Educating:1) Finally documentation and education center. Hope Odoo will not stop on this. But it is huge improvement. Much better than was in 6.1 =)2) Odoo.sh - FINALLY, good idea, not sure will this idea be leaving for a long - as that is serious infrastructure investment, but that is exactly what was on my mind this year - professional way of doing projects. Important factor many companies forget.There were no best practices. And Fabien did this. Good thinking.Solution: So for myself I know only TWO publishers on Odoo Apps of paid modules who I can recommend to my customers and also OCA is organizationthat has quality content. Also I know partners I trust and I can recommend as consultants on particular topics. I always tell that to my customers explaining the reality. And all are fine with this truth.As you can can see - that are all points that worried myself. But the reality now is1) that Odoo is the best Framework for all-in-one system implementations (I do not like this ERP word that became pure marketing).There is no others I see can be used.2) Another reality is that Odoo is product company and it is already not spending investments, but earning money - so I can trust that they will not collapse.BTW, even if they collapse - I and my customers have all code.As my company is for a long time with Odoo as main framework, I can say that there were time when decision of Fabien raised questions in my head, but the thing is - you have option to go with Odoo Framework or not to go. Nobody forces to use it - that is reality of FREE community.3) ERP market is questionable to invest in the long term, but I believe that future is for lightweight specialized all-in-one systems (not SAP or Oracle) and Odoo provides quick way to create such systems. So again - think about Odoo not as of solution, but as about TOOL that you can use with minimal investments. Want to create fork? Go and create it. Some partners I know did that and succeeded with their specialized solution. Want to use latest features only? Rely on publisher and have latest version! Again choice is yours. Want to have Enterprise feature? Pay for Enterprise, but be ready that as soon as product develops - price will change. That is obvious.If you are end customer and you describe to me your business - I will be able to tell you: to go or not to go with Odoo, if to go than when , what will be cost, do you need Community or Enterprise.And this investigation can be done in really days, even not weeks and specifically for you! Sometimes even Proof of Concepts for Customer Business can be provided on second meeting. Impossible with others ERP systems. And that is reality that was created by Odoo - with all its proc's and cons'sSo let's look at reality. Odoo is not ideal, but I assume that members of this community are all here to discuss ways to improve product, improve Odoo as a company, to share how to use it and share knowledge with others. Crticism is also good, it helps to improve. But we are not here to promote some other products. POINT.+1 NhomarAMENI personally feel comfortable with such fact (even if I must accept the world should do better on this).Hosting,Nobody want pay 1 dollar more than an amazon server even if you put a rocket launcher system on it.Service,By hour impossible to achieve and pay a R&D of Millions.Adjustments,People think you must pay them and not the other way around when you develop a module for them, even in some cases it is impossible to be profitable here for several Human Reasons.customer special modules,Same as abovesupport,Same as abovehand on service,Same as aboveEducation,Everybody wants to pay 1 dollar training.El mar., 17 oct. 2017 a las 17:44, Gonzalo Ruzafa (<email@example.com>) escribió:+1 NhomarAMENI personally feel comfortable with such fact (even if I must accept the world should do better on this).Hosting,Nobody want pay 1 dollar more than an amazon server even if you put a rocket launcher system on it.Service,By hour impossible to achieve and pay a R&D of Millions.Adjustments,People think you must pay them and not the other way around when you develop a module for them, even in some cases it is impossible to be profitable here for several Human Reasons.customer special modules,Same as abovesupport,Same as abovehand on service,Same as aboveEducation,Everybody wants to pay 1 dollar training.Nhomar HernandezCEO Vauxoo.Site: http://vauxoo.comTwitter: @nhomarBlog: http://nhomar.comGithub User: https://github.com/nhomarOdoo Gold PartnerSkype: nhomar00 (Envia mail previo no lo superviso siempre).HangOut: firstname.lastname@example.orgMóvil Venezuela:
+58 4144110269 (Telegram)Móvil México:
+52 1 4773933942 (Whatsapp)Nice, now the discussion can become more affordable and can arrive to a better understanding.> On Tue, Oct 17, 2017 at 9:10 AM, Martin < email@example.com  > wrote: Nhomar Hernández < firstname.lastname@example.org  > writes: >>> Do not support leeches!!! >> What exactly are leeches? > No, people that split and shit the market with bad marketing to make themselve as the "saviors". Ok, so you are trying to say, that leeches are people who make their own fork and sell that for some money? Then I aggree. I don't think, that we need that 'sent by using odoo' or 'built using odoo' messags on the websites or emails, even on wordpress you can deactivate that. And that's ok for me, like you don't see postgres or python when you just buy a cloud instance of odoo.Yea, maybe, but disable it dont need a fork, there are tons of modules that do that and even one maintained by OCA itself, sometimes for branding purposes it is a problem in some customers, but not fork necessary for that.odoo should get money for what they do, but with open source you can earn so much, so there is no need to sell the software itself.Matter of PoV, I think if you do not charge the work you do it is impossible to be profitable, (the time show us that pure services become Odoo, SA non-proifitable making both works Editor and Implementer.Remember the energy and the time are the unique things you can't destroy.Then the editor charge for the valuable code (good or not that's another story) and the implementer for the services they deliver and custom devs as services.That way everybody earns their money for their value.We can't put 0 as the cost of something just because it did not come from my pocket (that's a basic economical principle).I personally feel comfortable with such fact (even if I must accept the world should do better on this).Hosting,Nobody want pay 1 dollar more than an amazon server even if you put a rocket launcher system on it.Service,By hour impossible to achieve and pay a R&D of Millions.Adjustments,People think you must pay them and not the other way around when you develop a module for them, even in some cases it is impossible to be profitable here for several Human Reasons.customer special modules,Same as abovesupport,Same as abovehand on service,Same as aboveEducation,Everybody wants to pay 1 dollar training.THE UNIQUE WAY those models works by themselves is IF you ARE NOT the editor, and that's part of how Odoo ecosystem works, all those elements are paid from the customer to the Implementer, and then a little part (frequently no more than 10%) goes to the editor (Licences), for me it is a fear deal (Even if YES it can be improved).and so on should make enaugh money for the odoo company.Sadly you wasn't here before but it was not the case, people with a bunch of more money cam e an try to fuck us before, Money deliver power and power in our environments must be given to the one you trust, then YES I trust on Odoo if you don't it is sad (and I know there are things that must be improved) but everybody decide how to make their own money.At the end the unique way to achive have an ODOO IN EVERY COMPANY, is putting price really DOWN, and for that a clear long term vision, and a high volume is necessary (See tesla case), Imagine Tesla started with the Cheap model first with no vision? impossible to achieve, and their cars are not patented BTW.There is no real need to hold back some modules (like the Helpdesk App which could be used a lot)we can walk one by one on this regard, and may be I can agree on some of them and not in others, but this is another discussion, the helpdesk specific case is one I must agree with you.in an enterprice version. Doing that looks greedy to me.Do not evaluate a hole situation for only 1 case.... but again, greedy is block all, and try to look other options very well supported opensource enterprise systems and you will see, it is better Bad but Transparent, than "Looks Open" but they are lying on behalf.80% of the current work is opensourced for me it is unfair call that "greedy"Martin -- Thanks for your help!
Technical Director, XPANSA Group | ERP, BI, E-commerce, Data Mining and DMS consulting