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Re: Accounting v9: updated specifications

by
Numa Extreme Systems, Gustavo Marino
- 10/25/2014 17:22:01
About Argentina, my comments:
1/ does anyone use "Python" computed taxes for another reason than:
rounding (at 0.05 in Switzerland) or division computation (like in
Bolivia or Brazil)
Yes. There are some taxes which should be computed using auxiliary tables (Retenciones de Ganancias). Using Python code allows us to trigger the relevant table lookups.

2/ does anyone have refund Tax accounts that are different from the tax
account of the related invoice? (I mean account.account, not
account.tax.code)
No

3/ do you sometimes have for THE SAME invoice, some lines which are with
tax included in price and other lines with tax excluded of the price?
Yes. For some kind of businesses (Gas Stations) you can have taxes included in price (Impuestos internos) plus normal VAT (excluded) and normal VAT in different lines of the same invoice (Fuel plus other products)

4/ did you ever needed a tax with two levels? (a tax that has children
and those children also have children)
No
Regards


Gustavo Adrian Marino

 

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Email: gamarino@numaes.com

Skype: gustavo.adrian.marino

 

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2014-10-25 18:12 GMT-03:00 Graeme Gellatly <gdgellatly@gmail.com>:
Hi Fabien,

FIrstly, these look like the exact right reasons for taxes.  They are overly complex and this looks good.

1/ does anyone use "Python" computed taxes for another reason than:
rounding (at 0.05 in Switzerland) or division computation (like in
Bolivia or Brazil)

While I can think of one use case in NZ for this, the answer is I have never seen any other 
system support this and there are standard workarounds.

In truth we actually use Python computed taxes as a throwback to v6.0 l10n for UK, but we don't need to.
In theory percentage should be all we need.
I should update that.  As an aside we actually need Swiss rounding for cash transactions as we don't 
have 1,2,5 cents denominations anymore for cash transactions.

 2/ does anyone have refund Tax accounts that are different from the tax account of the related invoice? (I mean account.account, not account.tax.code)

No

 3/ do you sometimes have for THE SAME invoice, some lines which are with tax included in price and other lines with tax excluded of the price?

Yes, often with certain supplier invoices which are really an aggregation of 3rd party expenses.
In MYOB you would just enter the inclusive lines first, untick the box and enter the exclusive lines.
Because it is a supplier invoice, printing etc is not a problem as you don't print them.  So provided an
onchange just updated the lines to show ex/inc tax on the lines it does not matter.
This is merely an entry convenience, they don't have to display inclusive/exclusive and if
not supported the accounts person would have to work out manually. No big deal.

 4/ did you ever needed a tax with two levels? (a tax that has children and those children also have children)

Never. NZ tax is single level.

Caveats: I am only talking about standard sales tax.  I do not know how other consumption taxes get 
accounted for like cigarettes, alcohol, petrol duty, earthquake levy etc for those industries,
however I doubt they are Odoo targets as they all have very specialist IS's.

I've read through the spec, and there is one amazing feature of Xero which is missing in regards to tax.
I mentioned before I am writing for NZ Localisation,  a concept of tax periods for sales tax, 
but maybe it is more widely applicable.

When you do a Sales Tax return, generally it consists of the Sales and Purchases for a period plus or
minus any adjustments from errors in prior periods. This is true in Australia, NZ and UK. I imagine
it is similar elsewhere. In Xero when you complete a tax return, it 'knows' what value need to go
in the adjustments for prior periods. Its like it has a field which says that this line was
included in this return and if it is empty automatically adjusts it (e.g. entered after tax filed in prior
period)
Sorry you don't need to read the below unless you want to.  I wrote it before I read the questions properly and just gives more
info about NZ/Oz/UK.

I will give you the simplest case, which is NZ.  While marginally different, UK and Australia are the same.

In NZ we effectively have 3 tax rates on Sale of Goods. Zero Rated or 15% for goods.  Exempt for international sales.  Very few products are zero rated.  Bank fees, interest, finance charges mostly.  However they will commonly appear on the same invoice as taxed goods.  The UK would be the same, for example childrens shoes under size 6 aren't subject to VAT, or an uncooked pizza from a takeaway, but cooked pizza is.  (They also have a weird law that makes takeaway milkshakes from McDonalds 15p cheaper). Australia is very similar although the exempt products differ.  Moreover in NZ and these jurisdictions GST/VAT is a final consumer tax, like rest of Europe.  Without going into the details, basically what this means is B2B tends to talk ex tax pricing, while consumers are always shown incl GST.  In NZ that is law, not sure about the other two but in practice it works like that having lived in all three.

Like Spain we generally show the tax separately on the invoice (although it isn't a legal requirement, when zero and GST items are mixed it is easier) , but that doesn't mean there is no place for inclusive taxes. Here is how MYOB does it which I think is quite good and how I understand your proposal.

Rather than separate tax rates, e.g. inclusive or exclusive, they have a checkbox on their fiscal document entry forms called inclusive of GST.  Checking and unchecking the box merely changes the price displayed on the lines on screen by inverting the calculation.  It can be set on the partner as well to default. (Exempt is handled a bit like fiscal positions but a seperate checkbox for exempt would be awesome)

The reason for this is primarily supplier based for us but for others it is consumer based.

If my Office Administrator goes to the stationery store they give him a tax receipt, but the prices shown are inclusive of GST, although GST is listed separately as well.  But in order to enter it, we must either a) work the prices back, or b) change the taxes.

From a consumer perspective, if inclusive is selected, then the lines print inclusive prices, but the subtotal, tax, and total are as with exclusive.
That is how most people do it, but there is a link to NZ Tax Invoice requirements here
http://www.ird.govt.nz/gst/work-out/work-out-records/records-tax/tax-info/

It makes no reference to the invoice lines at all, except to say you must specify what it is and the quantity if it is over $1000.  On many
of our invoices we don't even print the price as it is an all in lump sum quoted job.

Now from what I can see, you have all these cases covered and it looks good.  TO your specific questions for the 3 countries I know.

Just one more thing on Australia/NZ sales tax law.  It is illegal (in Australia, recommended in NZ) to round GST at the line level.  You must either store it against the line at the highest precision supported by your information system, and then round at the document total, or you must total the invoice ex tax prices and then round.  In practice mostly I see the former.



On Sun, Oct 26, 2014 at 7:27 AM, Thorsten Vocks <thorsten.vocks@big-consulting.net> wrote:
Hello,

ok, regarding your explanation i have to correct my answer for "de":

1/: no
2/: no
3/: no
4/: no (if you mean tax + children + children = 3 levels)

Another opinion from germany would be good to validate.

Thorsten Vocks
        

2014-10-25 17:46 GMT+02:00 Fabien Pinckaers <fp@odoo.com>:
Dear Odoo community,

Following our accounting workshop with community members (around 25
attendees from UK, NL, BE, CH, FR, RO, DE), we updated the accounting
specifications for version 9:


https://docs.google.com/document/d/1MahXh0TdfjI0ohdTSz_c8cML7HqxvcAtvSAY63N20Tc/edit?usp=sharing

We still have a few open questions for the community:

1/ does anyone use "Python" computed taxes for another reason than:
rounding (at 0.05 in Switzerland) or division computation (like in
Bolivia or Brazil)

2/ does anyone have refund Tax accounts that are different from the tax
account of the related invoice? (I mean account.account, not
account.tax.code)

3/ do you sometimes have for THE SAME invoice, some lines which are with
tax included in price and other lines with tax excluded of the price?

4/ did you ever needed a tax with two levels? (a tax that has children
and those children also have children)

Please have a look at this document and check if it matches with your
country requirements.

Thanks,



-- 
Fabien Pinckaers
Odoo Founder

Phone: +32.81.81.37.00
Web: https://www.odoo.com
Twitter: @fpodoo

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