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RE: ODOO 8 and ODOO 9 Themes - Licenses!

by
kaizen__
- 12/20/2015 02:16:05

Andreas,

And if you’re wondering on what default copyright applies to github entries without an explicit Copyright notice, then github themselves can tell you

https://help.github.com/articles/open-source-licensing/

What happens if I don't choose a license?

You're under no obligation to choose a license. It's your right not to include one with your code or project, but please be aware of the implications. Generally speaking, the absence of a license means that the default copyright laws apply. This means that you retain all rights to your source code and that nobody else may reproduce, distribute, or create derivative works from your work. This might not be what you intend.

Interestingly, as part of the T&Cs of Github, you must allow others to fork your repository.  I’m not sure how this works together with ‘…nobody else may reproduce, distribute, or create derivative works…’.  My expectation is that it would be considered the narrowest interpretation possible, that is that although people are allowed to fork your repository, they would not be allowed to utilise this fork for any meaningful purpose (i.e. they could not compile / execute the code from it, nor market it as being a derivative work), nor would they be allowed to reproduce this code outside of the github servers, like by working on it offline (since once it’s on their own personal computer the Copyright owner isn’t bound by the Github T&Cs, and it just becomes a case of Copyright infringement).

 

 

Regards,

Bevan

 

From: Bevan Weiss [mailto:kaizen__@hotmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, 20 December 2015 5:56 PM
To: 'Odoo S.A. Community' <community@mail.odoo.com>
Subject: RE: ODOO 8 and ODOO 9 Themes - Licenses!

 

Andreas,

 

In just the past few days you’ve posted over 12 times complaining about licensing.  This community list is not the place to complain about licensing.

If you have questions for Odoo about licensing (not related to third-party themes or modules obviously… Odoo doesn’t control these) then you should take this up with Odoo themselves, and not with the community list.

 

Odoo are not responsible for ‘this mess’, you are.  You went looking on the internet, found some git repositories that don’t have any copyright statements on them, and are now blaming Odoo for you not knowing whether you can or can’t use them in your own work.  If they do not have an explicit copyright (or copyleft if you wish) notice on them, then you must assume that they are all rights reserved by the author of the document, and should contact the author themselves to find out more about this.  It is no different than a bookstore.  If you walk into a book store, pick up a book and flick to page 100 and find that you like the story, you can’t then go and copy it just because it doesn’t have a copyright statement on that page.  You MUST assume that you have no rights to reproduction unless there is a copyright (copyleft more so here) which provides you with the rights to do so.  If you don’t understand this, then you simply don’t understand the Berne Convention on Copyright, and you should immediately brush up on your knowledge of this prior to any further license discussions.

 

If you found a document from Luke Branch, and wish to use this, then don’t go asking Odoo if you can use it.  Ask Luke.  If he doesn’t reply to you, then no, you can’t use it.

 

 

The Odoo comments appeared to say

However the themes will not be open source. Once you purchase a license for a theme, you can use it on as many sites as you like, but you're not allowed to distribute it! 

If Luke then based his theme from one of these ‘non open-source’ Odoo themes, he was in breach of the license.

If you then copy Luke’s work and use this, or modify this for use, then you are also in breach of the license.

 

If the themes were created by Odoo, then they can be any bloody license they care to create for them.  They are the legal copyright holders, and can release this work and derivative work under any license they care to dream up.  They are not required to only release xGPL versions, if they so wished they could close source all future development.

 

I think you are mistaken when you think that the xGPL is binding on Odoo themselves.  As the copyright holders (NOTE: not licensees) they are allowed to change the copyright of their works as they see fit.  xGPL can only be binding on licensees… it is not allowed to remove any rights assigned to the copyright holder by the Berne Convention.

 

 

In conclusion:

If you have any confusion around licensing, it is due to your lack of knowledge of Copyright.  If the Copyright on a particular document is not incredibly clear to you (in that it has a complete copyright statement which you believe to be correct and legal), then you should assume that you can not use it.

You need to be careful with your thoughts around the xGPL stuff.  Richard Stallman (and the FSF) have a particular view on software licensing and they word things on the GNU xGPL webpages to make people think in the same way that they do.  You must remember, Odoo are not licensees of the Odoo software, they are the Copyright holders.

 

 

Regards,

Bevan

 

 

From: Andreas Becker [mailto:andi@lisandi.com]
Sent: Sunday, 20 December 2015 4:45 PM
To: Community <community@mail.odoo.com>
Subject: Re: ODOO 8 and ODOO 9 Themes - Licenses!

 

Bevan I am not spamming I have quite simple questions and concerns and I ONLY want answers from those people who are responsible for this mess because of constant license changes and Theme Modules which contain not even one line of a license! 

 

Simply have a look around in the git repositories of all Odoo developers who provide public access to their git repositories and to the customers who act according the AGPL and also provide access to i.e. git or other code repositories. For us it is an automated process to ask simply for the newest versions and modifications of those and this idea to make it automated is not by us by the way, many more are doing it that way. 

 

You will find nearly all Themes listed in the shop in one of those repositories and some contain license lines others not a single line.

 

By the way I am not connected to Tryton or anything else as I can stand on my own two feed and I am also no Partner or odoo by the way.

 

What you call simple licensing permissions isn't as simple as you try to make people believe. I wish it would be so simple! and my customers to!

 

In return to your comment I would like to know if you are an Odoo Official who can comment on license issues? I guess not, so we are still waiting for an official statement and answers to the Scenarios I have asked to them. 

 

We don't need any kind of statement of third Party people like you or of Partners from Odoo, etc, we like to get an answer which answers all our questions and clears all concerns from those who are owning the code. As you can read in the mailing list already many other people asked quite similar questions in the past and also yesterday.

 

If things would be so simple and clear like you make people believe here to keep them shut up and silently following the Leader what ever he does and no matter or write or wrong. We are a bit different people and many others here in the community are this too. They ask this and similar questions to responsible persons and most of them did not get any answers. If it would be so simple as you said they could actually avoid all those discussions by simply giving the answers you gave, but they do not!

 

So please stop trying to keep their back free and try to stop a valuable discussion which already brought up many other issues we actually did not have until now, but they are also interesting for us and our customers whom I asked to follow simply this discussion, so they can make their own opinion about people they should trust or not and about developers they should hire and those who they probably should avoid. A mailing list can gave much more answers for customers than an simple talk with one of the developers.

 

We trust our customers and they trust us and to keep that trust up we even are not afraid in sitting on a hot chair and asking questions which perhaps make some people feeling quite uncomfortable.

 

If the Luke Branch git Version was an AGPL version or not is actually one question which has been asked many times already as people asked what kind of licenses those Theme Modules have. If they have been created and are calling AGPL functionality than they simply have to be AGPL. Unfortunately you did not answer or comment on this question.

 

What is (concerning your version b) if Luke corrected the license to the correct one - actually leave Luke himself out as Luke could be many many people here who have Odoo Themes and even more Derivates of odoo Themes in their git repositories! And their are a whole lot of them and most of those derivates I guess get used already on live sites. What is with all those derivates? Do customers have to fear to be contacted by Odoo to pay a license fee because their developer who forked a version from a public git repository where several other modules and thems got collected by someone who had cloned the theme from a site owner who loves Free Open Source Software and has therefore all his modules which include the Module Theme clean he is using on his website. I hope you see the main problem here! 

 

If it is like you make people believe than actually everybody here should immediately check his git repositories and delete all themes in it which might be based on a theme which is now available for sale in the Odoo web store - The same might apply also to any module with same or similar conditions. In other words we are acting as developers in a huge huge grey zone because of this unclear situation.

 

W e really need an answer by Fabien or a responsible and legitimated person who can really answer all these questions and to whom you can post afterwards either new concerns because of his answers or also a simple Thank Yu for clearing up the situation finally.

 

The situation right now is destroying any open source community as people will get more and more afraid of big brother.

 

You actually named it by yourself and yourself has no complete answer to this problem!

 

If you’re talking about v7 and v8, then this gets a little bit tricky.  The publicly distributed version of Odoo was AGPL, however a private license was available for partners and certain customers.  If using the private license, then the AGPL conditions do not apply.  If using the publically available AGPL version, then all modifications to this would need to also be released as per the AGPL.  It might get a little bit tricky if themes are considered ‘configuration items’ instead of part of the actual program / application however.

 

 

We don't need "If's"

 

Theme Modules are complete modules and not only configuration items. We had similar cases at TYPO3 or even take wordpress as an example.

 

In TYPO3 there was templaVoila and the framework for templaVoila or now typo3 THEMES which is quite similar provide themes. All those themes are licensed as GNU GPL v.2 as TYPO3 is itself GNU GPL v.2 and all those themes need TYPO3 functionality to get up and running.

 

This is a bit different with Wordpress Themes. Here you get simple templates in a folder where you can modify each single template and those template files even get sold on Theme forest. Some of those template files are a commercial license even and some have other licenses than WordPress which is also GNU GPL v.2

 

Odoo Themes are working the way also those Theme packages in TYPO3 are working and therefore have to be the license of the system which is AGPL! and they have to be open to be shared and made available for others according to the AGPL License. If those themes are GPL v.3 what is possible as you can run actually GPL modules and Themes in Odoo AGPL version, than you can share them if you like to, but those who get a copy can again make them public for every one.

 

A simple solution of what Odoo S.A, woudl liek to achieve to do it the wordpress way.

 

They only would need to create a simple folder or folder/subfolder system from which than a Odoo Theme Module uploader can choose the theme and read all those files. In that case the Odoo Theme Module uploader would need to be under a GPL license but don't need to contain any other theme. - or he could be even be integrated into the default theme.

 

This uploader is than searching for the Theme main directory and uploading the files needed (CSS, XML, images, examples, texts, html, js etc) to the database.

 

In that case all Themes could be any license and they could even be distributed over Themeforest or similar services. All templates would NOT contain any code which makes them actually run by Odoo. Those CSS XML HTML JS IMAGE and other content files could even be very easily be shared on other systems. Also the other way around would work just perfectly. Any HTML Theme could be brought to be running in Odoo. 

 

There would need to be only another GPL licensed module which converts any HTML Template i.e. you can buy at Theme forest including its design, into Odoo. Or an Odoo Module could import any WordPress theme available on the market and there are plenty of free Themes available already. 

 

This would be possible by simply creating a structure like this

 

addons

themes

odoo-server

...

 

themes

--- theme 1

------- configuration

------- resources

------------ private

------------------------ less

------------------------ layouts

------------------------ module-templates

------------------------ templates

------------------------ partials

------------ public

------------------------ css

------------------------ js

------------------------ images

------------------------ others

 

 

addons

--- theme_uploader

--- theme_wordpress_converter

--- theme_exporter

--- theme_creator

--- theme... any kind of helpful theme module

 

 

Simply separate those two parts and everything is no more a license problem at all!

 

only to give you some idea

 

None of those themes would be able to upload itself inside Odoo, non of it would be able to connect to any other code of any odoo module, it would be simply only settings, css, js etc files (name it as content)

 

Now you have the .py module which uploads those themes and which uses those settings configuration files to connect to other modules with the correct settings needed. They will provide even a form where you will be able to change or add your custom settings which than again get stored in the DB and could be exported to the same Theme structure mentioned above.

 

In this case a Theme could not run without a module which helps them to be part of the to be build website. Those Theme modules actually will run absolute nothing themselves.

 

Now you could distribute all those themes with whatever license you want to have and you could even publish them on theme forest etc. services.

 

While the module who processes those theme files and which has to upload those files and settings to the db has to be under a GPL license, no license problems would ever occur like right now.

 

Unfortunately this is until now not the case and I really fear that you will get in serious problems if you now build your own Theme derivate on one of those Themes which were before part of Version 7 8 and now 9 like the Clean Theme or even promoted by Odoo as a starting point to build your own Theme on it.

 

What is the difference in Version 8 and Version 9 of those themes. I think you know already that this is a very minor change, which not even involve any file which makes the look and feel of a Version 8 Theme. In other words you could take the Version 9 default theme which comes with the package and compare it with the default theme in Version 8 or 7 and than simply add the css and other files.

 

Here is the campaign website from over one year ago!

 

What you will get?
We are a team of four designers, two experienced Odoo developers and two usability experts who are already working on this exciting project. The project entails:

·         the design of 50 customizable bootstrap-based themes

·         the creation of 70 HTML building blocks you can use for your own needs

·         publishing the Themes Designer Book: a comprehensive manual on how to customize your own website

·         developing new features for the Odoo Website Builder

We are designing mobile friendly themes based on the bootstrap fluid grid layout which assure you the perfect integration of any element of your page. 
We will provide a suite of clean HTML blocks, also called snippets or components, so that you can use to build your image galleries, timelines, profiles, etc
Every theme will come with its own set of colors, fonts and images, giving you the ability to match it to your own branding. Our themes will cover different industries and will provide all the features corresponding to their needs. 

 

OK fine

 

What license will these developments fall under?
Every improvement of the website builder application will be released in open source (AGPL) and included in the official version of Odoo. This includes: the customization toolbox, the contact form builder, an improved inline editor for perfect HTML pages.
However the themes will not be open source. Once you purchase a license for a theme, you can use it on as many sites as you like, but you're not allowed to distribute it! 
What version of Odoo is supported?
All themes, building blocks and customization options will work on Odoo 8 and all later versions.
As part of this project, we plan to improve the website builder (a better HTML editor, a LESS/CSS editor, and more). These improvements will be made in the master branch only (version 9).

The license is clear for those additional modules as even in Version 9 they would be AGPL License as posted here! I like that to be honest!

Unfortunately nothing is said about how those themes get distributed und unfortunately they have chose the module structure which gets even be build by a script inside of Odoo which is calling Odoo functionality and each Theme Module for itself connects to other libraries in inside of odoo which means they have to have the same license as Odoo itself which is AGPL in version 7 and 8 and LGPL in version 9.

 

Can I apply a theme on an existing website?
Yes, if your website is based on the default Odoo Website Builder theme; the default bootstrap. All our themes will design the standard building blocks.

 

In other words also all other Theme Module could be made be working the same way like that! But also read the comments which speak for themselves! No further comment necessary!

 

---

 

Here is the Thread why I am using Theme_Clean as an example. Long time before the campaign it was THE theme used by many developers to build their own themes on it. It was mostly even recommended to use Theme_Clean to start with Theme development!

 

 

 

In the comments you can read that those themes were available actually at the odoo git repository itself!

 

Anyone knows where those themes on https://github.com/odoo/design-themes moved to? What would a clean empty theme structure look like?

 

I'll wait until the Indiegogo campaign here is finished: https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/bootstrap-themes-for-odoo-cms to allow Odoo to gather as much funding to improve the themes and building blocks from the campaign as possible as it will be beneficial to the community as many building blocks will eventually be rolled into the open-source repo's as far as i'm aware. Once the funding has closed I will add my own modified fork of theme_clean back on my github profile to allow anyone who is interested to use it as a reference. ...

 

Greetings, I'm hoping that with the indiegogo project finalizing here that we can get this branch back? I openly supported the project and have contributed myself... Like I'm sure many of us, we really need this source so we can be making the changes our clients need in place now... if not long before now.

 

Hi Greg, I'll put the old theme_clean repository up as soon as I refactor it to work with the updates that will allow it to work in the stable branch (I downloaded a version that was working with RC1). It is definitely a good starting point for building a theme, however there have been many improvements in the design-themes branch of theme_clean, so once it is released I think it will be a better boilerplate for building on.

 

This is interesting topic, but unfortunatly, as John Baldwin noticed, the themes are removed/hidden from repositories...
As the indiegogo campaign (mentioned by Fabien in one of comments) is over with more than 600 % success, 
I think that it would be realy nice if someone could finaly share / unhide  some repo with at least  some basic module,
Or a skeleton with basic functionality (already present widgets) 
 

 

Dear Odoo and Community,
As  indegogo campaign has finished can somebody return this repository back for community. We would like to do some testing if possible.
https://github.com/odoo/design-themes.git
Regards, 

 

etc. p.p you will find all those quoted parts in the comment section of the above cited link.

 

What all those people need are answers, so that they can develop themes and modules for Odoo like before without any fear that at some point the bill will come into their house and they probably have to pay for all downloads who happened, only because they contributed to the communtity a free Theme based on a theme module which was before freely available at https://github.com/odoo/design-themes.git but is now available only for big money in the odoo app store.

 

Themes which contain a license and where others could be base their themes on are i.e.

theme_bs_ruma - AGPL

theme_gordon - AGPL

theme_gordonramsay - AGPL

theme_pelican - AGPL

theme_trustcode - AGPL

theme_vertel - AGPL

 

All Odoo Themes as far as I had a chance to have a look at those theme_modules did not contain any license text before the campaign and nor in any available version which we had access to now. But they contain a copyright, which means they are proprietary software as long as they have no copyleft license attached to it.

 

Proprietary software developers use copyright to take away the users' freedom; we use copyright to guarantee their freedom. That's why we reverse the name, changing “copyright” into “copyleft”.

 

It would be nice to have a list with even much much more Theme modules which are available already without any license problems. Thanks to those companies who made them available for everyone.

 

Because Odoo Theme Modules does not contain any license but a copyright it would be very important to know if they are "modules" or not. If they are modules they would need to have a GPL License IMHO, which means they also could be freely distributed with Freedom in mind.

 

Because they contain that copyright but have no license assigned any derivate of those Odoo Themes which gets multiplied in either way to others could ran into problems i mentioned in this thread already as long as this isn't really cleared up! Thanks for understanding!

 

 

Have a nice Sunday too!

 

Andi

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