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Re: ODOO 8 and ODOO 9 Themes - Licenses!

by
Andi Becker
- 12/19/2015 00:32:35
Please Houssine keep the discussion in that Thread about Licensing productive and refrain from using this kindish behaviour and unqualified tries to start trolling around and hindering productive discussions, Please do all a favour and enjoy your weekend instead of trying to stop the discussion as it seems you have absolute no community sense and will to contribute it with some valuable information! This is very unprofessional behaviour you have! Sorry! Enjoy your weekend and let people discuss here who have interest in that Topic as you only want to stop discussions for whatever reason it is!

@Eric: I would like to clarify your response!

The GNU Affero General Public License is a modified version of the ordinary GNU GPL version 3. It has one added requirement: if you run a modified program on a server and let other users communicate with it there, your server must also allow them to download the source code corresponding to the modified version running there.

The GPL (below) hat a problem with people who provided services i.e. a public website, but never published their code:

Suppose you develop and release a free program under the ordinary GNU GPL. If developer D modifies the program and releases it, the GPL requires him to distribute his version under the GPL too. Thus, if you get a copy of his version, you are free to incorporate some or all of his changes into your own version.
But suppose the program is mainly useful on servers. When D modifies the program, he might very likely run it on his own server and never release copies. Then you would never get a copy of the source code of his version, so you would never have the chance to include his changes in your version. You may not like that outcome. 

As you can read clearly here already there is a differentiation about running on a server or a desktop, or any other device! 

This is AGPL (below)

Using the GNU Affero GPL avoids that outcome. If D runs his version on a server that everyone can use, you too can use it. Assuming he has followed the license requirement to let the server's users download the source code of his version, you can do so, and then you can incorporate his changes into your version. (If he hasn't followed it, you have your lawyer complain to him.)

A user's server user is also the visitor of the website you have build with that module or any other services which are accessible for other users too if published/connected to the internet. Nobody has a problem if you want to use that module or theme only for your private purpose on your personal Intranet or desktop computer, as long as you don't provide a service even from there, what would be possible too, i.e. via DynDNS like some people even did here on the mailing-list which than did until now not provide the source code - i.e. the code for the A/B Testing Module! where we actually asked for the code after we had been invited to use that module! Until now we did not receive the source-code. Nor in Print - nor via other ways!

By the way no where I said that the provided source code has to be in digital format at all. But there must be a link to the sources or any other accessible way to get the source code of that specific Module. Otherwise it is a violation of the AGPL and in Germany people probably could even "Abmahn" you because of that, when you run an publicly or for other users accessible Odoo web application and/or website and you don't provide that access,

"on a server that everyone can use" this here is actually the important part!

Do your customers providing Odoo webapplications/websites which are accessible from the internet for everyone? If so they (not you) need to provide access to the sourcecode used in that webapplication/website as they are considered to provide a service.

The GNU Affero GPL does not address the problem of Service as a Software Substitute (SaaSS).

It does NOT address that problem! It is about any service you provide which is accessible for everyone! 

SaaSS means that users use someone else's web server to do their own computing. This requires them to send their data to the server, which does their computing for them and sends the results back to them. SaaSS is an injustice because the users cannot control their computing when it's done that way.

Take the Odoo Cloud (odoo.com) services as an example.

If some program on this server is released under the GNU Affero GPL, the server is required to offer the users the corresponding source of that program. That is good, but having this source code does not give them control over the computing done on that server. It also does not tell them what other software may be running on that server, examining or changing their data in other ways.

Now in case of Odoo it is easy as they provide the source at least for their core and some modules, but they do not provide the code for the themes which are nothing else than modules running on the server which is now switched to LGPL but was before all the way through AGPL and still many parts are AGPL too.

here you can read more about it without leaving doubts!

To make it clear again. Here in this Thread I would like to discuss not the private intranets which are not connected even to the internet, also not during certain times, where than people could have access to it. No

I would like to get clarification about the Odoo Themes mainly as it seems that people are afraid or got forced (I don't know what is the real reason behind it) to take of their Themes or perhaps the websites which use that Theme. As exactly this is what worries also our customers right now the most after what happened to the Christmas Theme and the fact that until now also the Clean Theme repositories i.e. the one from Luke Branch were he even wrote he will provide access again after the campaign ended and provide also all his derivates of clean theme, don't got online again! The question I am having is WHY? 

Luke is really a 100% community man like you Eric and he actually always kept his words but in that case not! And now a Theme from another real Community man - Jay - disappeared mysteriously with "License Problems".

I really would be happy if someone could clarify what License problems these actually are!

Now the Odoo Server was before running Odoo 8 and offered those templates and Sites on that server were running those Theme Modules. But where is the source code? Now it is running Odoo 9 while many other sites and Odoo services which are accessible from the internet (by everyone) run i.e. derivates of Clean Theme. I use the Clean Theme as an example as it has been mentioned in many many Threads during the indiegogo campaign as THE Theme most people have used.

Or lets make an example:

You use the Clean Theme which was available for Free many months before the campaign and actually promoted to be used as starting point for own Themes (but you could even buy now the Clean Theme from the shop- both scenario would be possible) and of course you have to customise it for your customer needs and you are doing this not only for one but for many websites as every customer of you has different ideas about the graphics used etc. As a base you always use the Clean Theme to make work easier for you.

Now you have let's say 10 modified Versions of clean Theme and your customers are happy with it.
None of those customers ever downloaded the Free Available Clean Theme before the indiegogo Campaign nor did they buy the Clean Theme from the Odoo shop as the Odoo Design, Look and Feel is not what they like!

What will happen next?

Will Odoo S.A. now ring at your doorstep and ask you to pay for all those 10 derivates + your original which you have actually downloaded before the campaign from i.e. Luke's repository where the Clean Theme was available before for free.

11 x 199 Dollar US = "Hi nice Developer Thanks for making so much Derivates - could you please send us 2189 Dollar. Thanks!"

now guess what. Your customers are loving the AGPL and they provide access to their source code which also includes modules and themes which also get sold on the Odoo website for i.e. 199 Dollar. Thanks to odoo-code-search others find all that stuff and it gets downloaded from each of your customer servers 10 times.

Will now somebody ring at your customers doorbell and ask them to pay 2189 Dollar as they gave the template away even for free in the sense of the GPL Licenses?

meanwhile we have an earning on Odoo Owner of the Theme code with 21890 Dollar.

If this is the case than all those who actually contributed to the indiegogo campaign and all others which have access to their code repositories and who have downloaded the themes already and made and sold their derivates or given it away for free (lets take again only Clean Theme as an Example). 

This would mean the following IMHO:

Thanks for contributing to the campaign we got your money and we will keep our promise and give you those 50 Themes. - Big Smile - ironic.

The one you contributed and is modifying those 50 Themes for his customers and giving it away them with their Odoo Application. Will now someone come and demand 99500 $ US or even more because all his 50 customers love the AGPL and provided the access to the sources and at least 10 times each theme had been downloaded from there to and are now used on other sites.

I am pretty sure that this is the scenario which is actually causing the problems here with all those Themes which don't appear again with their code repositories and now as last case also with the Christmas Theme. I don't know if that Theme was based on one of those Odoo Themes, but as I had a look you can access in git repositories, most Themes actually are based on Clean Theme, some on Tree House and some very new one's are actually using Graphene as a Base - all Odoo Themes, all now in the shop, and when will the bill come? This is exactly the worry I have and my customers have actually to and they like to get an answer for this!

Now the Download of i.e. Christmas Theme could be measured, as it was inside the Odoo Store but they could or can not measured how often a Theme get shared via the git links and git repositories which often get updated on a daily base automatically in many Odoo Development companies.

They don't know actually that the same Theme is now not only downloaded i.e. 10 times as a free Theme from the Odoo Theme Store but also pulled about 100 times to other git repositories which are interconnected with each other so that some (most who have an automated way to update those Odoo repositories) will have now  multiple times the same theme on their servers + the 10 derivates each of those 100 developers who pulled that theme from the githubs with the GPL sense of Inspire to share.

21890 $ + 100 people download you 10 derivates and your original bas Clean Theme (multiplied by) Developers who build 10 derivates of each of those themes and give for free to their customers (multiplied by) Developers who build 10 derivates of each of those themes and give for free to their customers (multipl .....) 

isn't that a great snowball like system to make money with a simple small script? I am pretty sure that this is not according any GPL Licenses and human sense!

If this scenario would be the reason why people suddenly pull back their themes and no more open up their repositories than I won't wonder and actually understand them. 

---

Looking back to why finally you or your customer who opened up his repositories which contained also the other themes would need to pay about 100.000 or even 1 MIO Dollar US as fine to the original code Owner who is in case of CleanTheme Odoo S.A. Wow!

---

Why did it happen:

Because you wer trusting the GPL Licenses and have left the copyrights intact you even mentioned the original developer to honour him in your script like it is necessary, useful and the last suggested. You not even changed all namings or paths etc and you left actually all references how they are as you liked to not sell the modules as your own brainchild. So it is very easy to discover who is the one responsible. All Odoo Themes come actually with no license Tag at all which would mean they are Public Domain! The fact that there is a price tag somewhere below in the .py file does not has any relevance concernring the license.

How to perhaps avoid those problems you might ask: Well I don't know. If everyone would follow the GPL licenses than there would not be any kind of that discussion here. I hope that people wake up and also that Houssine wakes up because one of his customers could be one of them mentioned above in future too if a Theme got used which has not been created from base by yourself!

How to avoid - let me think:

  1. Don' Publish your modules or Themes on Odoo Shop
  2. Enter a License Tag GPL3 , AGPL 3 to any Theme or module you are writing. modify even the script which is building the ground structure so that your name, your company, your email, phone etc and the AGPL GPL disclaimer gets inserted by default, when you start a new module.
  3. Don't destroy copyright notices in those Themes or Modules if there are any as this would be a copyright violation. If there is none you can choose the license and mention yourself as the one who modified it. IMHO it is simply nice and should be to keep at least the name of the original person who developed what you are going to modify
  4. Possible but I would not do it (as long as it is kind of phoning back functionality) - would be to do search replace to delete all references and links a Theme or Module has to places where they could count or see that you are using their code.
  5. You need to keep the copyright notice if there is one but I would rename the Theme or module with something either very common or with something complete different which makes it more difficult to trace back where your derivate might came from when looking to the code from the outside without reading the copyright notice. Everything else beside the copyright notice if one is there at all can be modified to your needs.
  6. Finally you have perhaps a Clean Theme Derivate which contains still its HTML structure and the CSS style but non bootstrap classes have ben renamed and the look and feel had been changed - most could be done by a script which does search and replace, even replacing demo texts, links and images with the ones you need and which only link to you.
Perhaps afterwards (no guarantee) you won't get a bill to pay for all those copies which have been pulled from your git or any other place (actually including the Odoo Shop which I would recommend after that what happened that something FREE disappeared because of so called "License Problems".

Perhaps it is at the time that OCA will setup a trustworthy shop themselves and is earning some revenue from it for OCA development instead.

This written above is not only valid for Themes it is actually valid for any module you develop - it would measn DON'T use it as it could casuse you problems.

I hope that I am wrong with the pressure put on people to put down their clean repositories (and not bringing them up again) and free themes but to be honest I sense exactly that this is the actual problem and reason for it!

Have a nice weekend

Andi







As Odoo itself has hosted and provided Odoo 8 Themes and is still providing services with it it is a service and as someone who is using it we need access to it - am I correct!


With kind regards,
Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Con un cordial saludo,
Cordialement,
с сердечным приветом,
เรื่องที่เกี่ยวกับชนิด,
與親切的問候,

 ANDI BECKER

CEO/General Manager LisAndi Co., Ltd.

--------------------------------------------------

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15/21 M.2 Viset Road, Rawai, Muang, Phuket, Thailand 83130

Mobile: +66 (0)81 606 3378
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On Sat, Dec 19, 2015 at 10:16 AM, Houssine BAKKALI <houssine.bakkali@gmail.com> wrote:

thanks Eric. You find the strong to go through all the mail and try to explain what I've already tried :) but as far as I understood this is because I'm living in Brussels where there is french fries and mayonnaise and Odoo. I swear that I never eat french fries with fabien pinckaerts or with any odoo employee:)

If trolling is was an art... Andreas will probably be a master...

Andreas don't waste your time, I won't read your response... I've better things to do on weekends... By the way, you should try to get a life :)

Le 19 déc. 2015 03:04, "Caudal Eric" <caudaleric@gmail.com> a écrit :
>
> There is a popular belief that states that AGPL means "public" and that you should publish any AGPL module on the Internet.
>
> This is incorrect: the AGPL license forces to redistribute the code to anybody using the software (directly or via network connection).
> * If you develop for a private ERP to your customer, you must provide the code to the customer and users of the ERP. You don't have to publish the code on the Internet (but you can).
> * If you develop a public website for SaaS in AGPL, you need to make the code available to any user by any possible mean. You could perfectly send a printed book with the code to any user instead of publishing it on the Internet. Obviously nowadays the later is the preferred solution...
>
> In short: don't make the confusion between distribution and publicity.
>
> On Sat, Dec 19, 2015 at 8:25 AM Andreas Becker <andi@lisandi.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> :-) nope you're misunderstanding things. and blocking this is just about security and privacy. I hope you do the same with your customers odoo implementation
>>
>>
>> Yep of course we are doing not providing access to that site as it is mainly only an advertising site of Odoo S.A.. You are right Houssine it is a securiy issue and hackers would like it like an invitation to hack, but they could also find out of other ways what is build in thow. The links for access to the source can be anywhere, but they have to be there! That is the actual point and this is why the info page if you modify it to YOUR needs can be very useful! Nobody actually says that you have to name all modules integrated into your site, but you have to give public access to the source. These are two different things. You can simply open up your repository and provide people access to the sources, i.e. from all your projects and than still the visitor of that repository would need to find what he is looking for and believing that it is in one of your sites. Take the clean theme as an example. When you use it or a derivate (a clean theme which you have modified even only a little) on your site, you need to provide people access to the source. People like you and me and many others.
>>
>>> this is an interpretation your interpretation. you may be right but you may also be wrong. 
>>
>>
>> This is exactly why it is important to discuss it again and again until it is clear for everybody. Let's see who else has the CleanTheme in his site as an example. Fortunately Odoo has posted all names to each theme. As soon as they get used in Version 8 there should be the source available for everybody. Of course only the source which is inside the Theme Module - which means for all Themes right now the complete Theme.
>>
>> When you look to the git repositories you can already find lots of Themes there by the way! - yeah we are looking to haha - and it is good to see what is going on but mostly it is an automated process which simply informs you of any changes done.
>>
>> ---
>>
>> By the way I checked Google and could not find any proove that all people who EVER contributed to TinyERP, OpenERP or ODOO agreed actually in the license changes - I mean both the one done from GPL v.3 to AGPL v.3 and the one from AGPL v.3 to LGPL v.3
>>
>> To be honest this discussion could be stopped quite easily by those who tell that there is a proove - simply post the link to it here or send a PM than I will post it. If you don't have that proove, than simply stop trying to make people believing that there is a proove. 
>>
>> So please Houssine, It looks as if you have or had access to that consent or know where o find it. Please send a link as I can't find it as IMHO there isn't one!
>>
>> Thanks to those giving me more information which might be the problem with the Christmas Theme license. But if that is really the case than something is totally wrong in the Odoo ECO System as it would mean that EVERYBODY and EVERY COMPANY (your customers) might get problems if they are using a derivate of one of the Themes released by ODOO S.A. - Check out your Theme derivates and on what they are based! I guess most of them are based on one of the Themes provided by Odoo S.A. which you now also could buy in ODOO S.A. Look and feel in the shop. If yu now start distributing your derivate which is the case when you provide others access to it or publish a site with it (ok that might be your customer problems!) than you could get into the same trouble like the one with the Christmas Theme and this can not be! or - what do you think about it?
>>
>> The default Theme seems to be based on Tree House. Many Themes out there are based on Clean Theme, which was long time free available anyway. Only because ODOO S.A. decided now to release Clean Theme for a very very high price to public to make big money with it, does not allow them to force people to take out there Themes. IMHO anybody else can distribute any of a derivate of those Theme Modules as they are AGPL! and have to be AGPL!
>>
>> Again IMHO ALL Themes are AGPL as the module building the modules base itself is AGPL and the module is using other AGPL code to get there Themes installed and up and running. Please tell me that I am wrong but Please deliver the PROOVE that I am wrong in my point of view and believing that the AGPL license is still valid for ANY module out there which includes all themes.
>>
>> In TYPO3 we had also people delivereing non GPL conform code with their Modules and this was not allowed. Since many years now there is a "kickstarter" and an "extension builder" which is nothing else doing than providing a base structure to build a module BUT and this is really good that base structure already includes the License Disclaimer and since then nobody complained or got such discussions, as they are simply not necessary at all. 
>>
>> The same actually the Odoo call for creating a module base should provide beside the base structure. If this would be the case than also ALL modules all templates all modified report forms etc. would have that disclaimer by default in their module and won't be without any license in Public Domain! as most of extended Modules and also most Themes actually are!
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>  
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> With kind regards,
>> Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
>> Con un cordial saludo,
>> Cordialement,
>> с сердечным приветом,
>> เรื่องที่เกี่ยวกับชนิด,
>> 與親切的問候,
>>
>>  ANDI BECKER
>>
>> CEO/General Manager LisAndi Co., Ltd.
>>
>> about.me/andibecker
>> --------------------------------------------------
>>
>> LisAndi Co. Ltd., Phuket, Thailand (lisandi.com)
>> 15/21 M.2 Viset Road, Rawai, Muang, Phuket, Thailand 83130
>>
>> Mobile: +66 (0)81 606 3378
>> VoIP:   +49 (0)711 50 88788 50
>> Fax:     +49 (0)711 50 88788 50
>> Skype:          lisandi
>> Facebook:     andibecker
>> Google Talk/Facetime/eMail:  andi@lisandi.com
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------
>>
>> This email may contain confidential and/or privileged information. If you are not the intended recipient (or have received this email by mistake), please notify the sender immediately and destroy this email. Any unauthorized copying, disclosure or distribution of the material in this email is strictly prohibited. Email transmission security and error-free status cannot be guaranteed as information could be intercepted, corrupted, destroyed, delayed, incomplete, or contain viruses. The sender therefore does not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the contents of this message which may arise as a result of email transmission
>>
>> On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 10:22 PM, Houssine BAKKALI <houssine.bakkali@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> 2015-12-18 16:03 GMT+01:00 Andreas Becker <andi@lisandi.com>:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 9:06 PM, Houssine BAKKALI <houssine.bakkali@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> discussion have been done by OCA. not on the theme but about the odoo relicencing it has been talked about
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hi Houssine
>>>>
>>>> Could you please send me the link to that discussion(s) So I can read them if they are new to me - could be that I missed some Threads. Thanks, this would be very helpful!
>>>
>>>
>>> just ask google as i don't have the time to do it for you. OCA made a blog post for it if i remember 
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> You guessed wrong. Our customers always get the sources of what we provide. Thet do whatever they want with it. I hope it's clear.
>>>>>
>>>>> Stop arguing what you don't know of. Our customer receive the code even without asking for it. 
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> AGPL is actually not about your customers! It is about the community of all (public), which means the community should have access to it.
>>>>
>>> we are integrators it means we implement odoo for our customers and the customers are the only users of the implementations. nobody exept them have access to the system
>>>  
>>>>
>>>> The AGPL license, on the other hand, treats deployment of websites and services as “distribution”, and compels anyone using the software to run a service to also distribute the modified source code. Not so difficult with odoo actually as it is more or less build in and you would only need to extend your info page with the links to the additional modules you are using.
>>>>
>>>> https://www.easy-my.com/en_US/website/info
>>>> http://www.yotech.pro/2015/12/securite-odoo-website-info/
>>>>
>>>> compare the differences and if now those links would belinks to the sourcecode everything would be fine and according to AGPL.
>>>
>>>
>>> nope you're misunderstanding things. and blocking this is just about security and privacy. I hope you do the same with your customers odoo implementation
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> http://kkovacs.eu/businessmens-guide-to-open-source-licenses
>>>>
>>>>> For example, you can make GPL and non-GPL code communicate through a database, web services, or APIs. But the moment you call GPL code directly, your code must be put under the GPL.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> And this is the case when a Theme gets even installed. It is calling the odoo code as otherwise it would not install.
>>>
>>>
>>> this is an interpretation your interpretation. you may be right but you may also be wrong.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Besides being a socially responsible businessman, you should also know that giving the code you have had developed to the open source community for free can also be the right thing to do financially. If you are not profiting directly from that code, it's rarely smart to hang onto it.
>>>>> The community will go forward with the development anyway. Their next release will have nice new features, bug fixes, and better security. If you have kept your code secret, you will be the one who pays (in money or in time) for the integration of that secret code into their new releases. Or integrating their security fixes into your code. Both get messy quick, even with the help of state-of-the-art version control systems (that you should be using for every project, but that's another article.)
>>>>
>>>> Andi
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>
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>>
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>
> --
>
> Eric  Caudal (from my mobile)
>
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