Community mailing list archives
Re: Please confirm comments on v9 UIby
Akretion, Raphael Valyi
NB: sorry to have inserted this in the UI thread, but I think this is closely related as the UI is a proprietary module now interacting with AGPL modules.
Anyway, just my opinion. Thanks for your time.
I think what would clear doubts would be an inquiry to the Free Software Foundation or some legal entity specialized about open source, being presented pro and cons by independent parties (not just by Odoo SA which is judge an party here). I think that may also re-assure your investors that your business model is strong.
Hello Fabien,I don't think you are exactly like the Linux kernel, specially because you CHANGED your kernel license AFTER the modules were created under the assumption we had an AGPL kernel. Also, even if it were legal, I'm not sure if that would be a good move either, you probably know the very special opinion Linus has about NVidia proprietary drivers...
Also the OCA board may have an "intention", it does have a CLA from OCA contributors, but if it needs a different license than AGPL to be legal, that need to be a transparent re-licensing process and not just an intention because potentially the intention of some of the board members may differ from the one of module authors and that would be legitimate.
Look, like others we will adapt our business model to the conditions as long as they are legally grounded. But unfortunately, I'm still skeptical about it at this stage. And I even really tell it in the interest of Odoo business: we all do better if Odoo SA do well as an editor and that would be unfortunate if your business plan were to be trapped into legal mud somedays.
On Wed, Jun 10, 2015 at 4:29 AM, Fabien Pinckaers <firstname.lastname@example.org> wrote:
Raphaël,As Alexandre Fayolle explained at the OCA board meeting: even the Linux kernel allows proprietary modules (example: the NVIDIA drivers). Odoo's modules are exactly like Linux modules. So, we are following Linus position .Now, its important to reassure Odoo users. Even if one may have different interpretation of the license (Linux and RMS may disagree on this), the intention of the copyright owners (Odoo, OCA at least) are clear: we want to protect our users from legal risks and discussions. During Odoo Experience, we (Odoo and OCA) did a statement  that explicitly says that a user of our modules can use proprietary and open source modules together (LGPL & AGPL).With such a public statement, users are protected from legal risks since the copyright owner is the only one that can sue a user. (and we have no intention to do it)Being permissive for users is good as it will avoid fears for customers.But we also think its important to respect open source licenses. If a developer releases a module under LGPL or AGPL, we should enforce the fact that other developers respect his choice.So, we will control what the developers of modules do:- Enforce derivative work for both LGPL and AGPL modules (if someone changes a module,he must release his changes under the same license)- You can not develop a proprietary module that depends (depends in __openerp__.py, orimport in python files) on an AGPL module.To do that, we plan to add automated checks in the apps store to check module licenses and their dependencies.Thanks,FabienPS: I am not an expert, but if we can have proprietary modules and AGPL modules together, it looks like it's because linking is a symmetrical operation in terms of GPL.On Tue, Jun 9, 2015 at 5:58 PM, Raphaël Valyi <email@example.com> wrote:Thanks.Again, just my opinion. But I think we should really talk about this openly because this is a serious issue. I think we had a pretty safe situation before and now we are entering a very uncertain licensing mess, I'm really not sure it would pay off for anybody.I'm not a lawyer either, but I just want to tell that I'm really not sure this is as simple as some people say. In my opinion AGPL modules are called via the dependency injection features in ways that would be equivalent as making direct calls in term of making a combined work.Hello Christophe and others,this is not about the OCA "agreeing" or finding it cool or not, this is about what a lawyer would say with the given licenses. You may find it cool and in a few years a license troll company makes it a business model to sue integrators on users who may infringe licenses (this troll business model absolutely exists with patent infringements for instance and it already does a lot of harm).See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dependency_injection. Odoo is FULL of this pattern.If the OCA has to hack into the licenses of contributed modules to make this legal, well this is may be technically possible given the OCA CLA, but in any case, that should then be a transparent re-licensing process.
Now imagine the abstract example of a proprietary e-shop who wants to work in a given country. Eventually they are interest in using our big localization to create localized invoices. But calling into our localization directly from the the proprietary e-shop would be illegal as stated by the GPL FAQ about *GPL plugins ( http://www.gnu.org/licenses/old-licenses/gpl-2.0-faq.en.html#GPLPluginsInNF ). Right?
Now is that legal to make an LGPL framework such as Odoo with a generic create function that would call the create function indirectly of any installed AGPL module (via the "dependency injection") ? Sorry but it looks a bit weak.
If that was true a proprietary program could always write a small LGPL wrapper that would call any *GPL functions indirectly this way and any *GPL program could be hacked. We are not talking about just sending some predefined API message to some *GPL program, we are talking about a plain memory "static linking" in a plain OOP fashion automatic calls back and forth between the proprietary and AGPL code (think about the computed fileds chain once your are inside the create method call stack). IMHO this is just like making a direct link except that there is an un-assuming middleman that would try to hide the illegal linking.
I'm personally in favor of letting main project contributors letting choose themselves for the code they made before changing their license forcefully in ways that are not just a license upgrade, because possibly that would be an even bigger step than moving from AGPL to GPL, possibly an AGPL to LGPL step, that's quite a big step for people who purposely license under AGPL to be protected from the proprietary industry." customer of the enterprise edition will not be allowed to use a community module, which is not licensed under LGPL, with the new UI."PLEASE don't spread this, because it is NOT Correct. There has been a complete agreement between Odoo and the OCA about that. There will be no issue mixing them. Provided that commercial modules don't use AGPL modules. It is also thinkable that OCA will released work under AGPL.There is no magic, but I think we have a unique opportunity to work on a platform where both community driven and commercial offering could live together, lets try it !Having said that I think putting the UI in Enterprise edition is a major mistake...RegardsChristopheOn 08.06.2015 16:12, OpenERP Master wrote: > Thanks for posting a link to the google doc. It is interesting. I > still maintain my original comment, IMO, it is a serious offense to > have any difference in a user experience between versions. I would ask > anyone to provide another successful software package that has such a > setup where there is a different experience between versions. For me, > this is a breaking point, meaning, I won't offer it. I'm sorry, but I > put my foot down. 8.0 works great. Most well known developers have > just started releasing their code for 8.0, haven't even thought about > 9. That is a mile away. Please correct me if my understanding is wrong. Let's have a look into the future: Besides the problem of the maintenance of 2 different UI's, I see a complete separation between Community version and Enterprise edition coming for legal licensing reason. A customer of the enterprise edition will not be allowed to use a community module, which is not licensed under LGPL, with the new UI. Nobody, except of Odoo and maybe official partners, is allowed to develop new modules with the new UI, so all community modules must stay with the old UI, so there will not be any community modules with the new UI anyway. Enterprise customers will be completely locked in if they are not willing to accept different UI's in one software. For me that sounds like a complete split. This is really bad news and if I had seen that coming a year ago, I would have taken another decision. -- twanda AG Ermin Trevisan Artherstrasse 19 CH-6318 Walchwil T +41 41 758 1515 M +41 79 208 7373 E firstname.lastname@example.org www.twanda.ch www.ipadweinkarte.twanda.ch--