Community mailing list archives
Re: Odoo v9 Community and Enterprise editionsby
Eric Caudal (Odoo Community Association)
Please do not depict the OCA as the responsible of this situation because we are not: after many years of AGPL, OpenERP SA has decided to change to LGPL, not the OCA.
We do not challenge this new license as it is opensource and we understand the business reasons for OpenERP SA to switch to it.
Now, that it would be convenient for OpenERP SA that the OCA switch to LGPL, we can see that as well. Nevertheless, today the situation for a change are probably not met and would require more than a few mails.
The OCA board is a mix of pure opensource players, partners/non partners and businessmen, which is probably a reflection of the entire community itself. I have attended several meetings on the subject and I can see 2 main streams going in 2 opposite directions:
- the community members who would advocate for the change because it might make sense to do it for short term business/practical/"it is good to be all friends together" reasons.
- the ones that would definitely never do it for the risk of spoils on the short/mid/long term
I am talking on my name here but to even think about OCA switching to LGPL, we would need strong/absolute security that OCA job would never be closed up by one of the players (OpenERP SA, external company etc...).
Unfortunately today, I do not think that you (or anybody) have the power to do that, not because you would not do it sincerely but because of business pressure/changes or even legal reasons.
2015-05-10 0:57 GMT+08:00 Fabien Pinckaers <email@example.com>:
Eric, I am convinced that a good a model is one that aligns everyone's objectives: the community, the partners and Odoo SA. The ideal world would be this: Open Source = Community + OCA Enterprise = Community + OCA + Paid Apps And not this: Open Source = Community + OCA Enterprise = Community + Paid Apps The ideal world --------------- The ideal world would be to let people choose between: Open Source = Community + OCA Enterprise = Community + OCA + Paid Apps With such a model, everyone is aligned: - The success of OCA is in the interest of Odoo SA because OCA can be used by enterprise users. We would make our best to promote OCA and community. - Investing in open source is key for Odoo SA because it can be a path to upgrade to Odoo Enterprise, and it's the way to attract more users and contributors to our open source community. - OCA users will be able to use ALL modules available in the Odoo place and will not be restricted because of internal license conflicts The wrong approach ------------------ If the OCA pushes for a divergent fork: Open Source = Community + OCA Enterprise = Community + Paid Apps What does this mean? - OCA users will not be able to use paid apps (themes, voip, ...): it's a loss of value for OCA users. Seriously, who cares if an OCA user wants to pay for an Odoo theme? It's not bad, it's good for him. - Enterprise users will not be able to use OCA apps: it is a loss of value for enterprise users and a loss of contributors for OCA - Users of the two worlds will loose a lot: it's like if everyone can only use 50% of the apps, but not everything they want. - On the three types of modules (Community, OCA, Enterprise), the looser may become community because everyone tries to strengthen its position because of a stupid internal fight Odoo Enterprise vs Odoo OCA - We will create frustrations within the Odoo community. OCA will try to redevelop Enterprise modules because they are not compatible with their license and Odoo SA will have to redevelop OCA module if enterprise users need them. What should we do? ------------------ We should all work together by making ALL modules becoming compatible with each others. It should be in Odoo SA interest to participate and grow the OCA and it should be in OCA interest to have Odoo SA that releases great community versions every year. Every one invest in what better fits his need but the users benefit from everything: OCA do open source, Odoo SA do open source (Odoo community) and enterprise, partners can do open source modules or paid apps, ... I want to work with OCA to improve Odoo in general because our users are free to use OCA modules. I want to continue collaborating with everyone on github while avoiding stupid internal licenses conflicts. I am convinced that the success of Odoo has been to benefit from a great community, a strong Odoo SA and a huge partner network. That's what made the difference with Openbravo (vendor with low community) or Adempiere (community with no vendor). If we succeed to continue contributing together while satisfying everyones need, Odoo and its community will be a sky rocket: - Odoo SA will release great new versions every year - Community will develop great extra addons Can we do this? --------------- For all of the above reasons, this model is great: Open Source = Community + OCA Enterprise = Community + OCA + Paid Apps And Eric's model is the start of an internal divergence of interests whose loser will be the user: Open Source = Community + OCA Enterprise = Community + Paid Apps We can do the first model. All we have to do is to make the OCA modules compatible with other modules: from AGPL license to LGPL license. I know it's an effort for the OCA (they don't have the copyright of everything) but as I said to the OCA board: we are ready to contribute and make it happen. I am ready to dedicate our developers to convert all OCA modules to version 9 in LGPL. (at least those that do not conflict with Enterprise modules) Imagine the sky rocket we can do if Odoo SA and OCA succeed to better work hand in hand instead of fighting on licenses issues. So, if you want to do it, we can do it. To be clear: I don't ask you to sell or buy Odoo Enterprise. Some will do, others will only use Odoo Community. That's fine. I just ask you that we collaborate by making all modules compatible so that our users can freely choose what they want to use. And, as our interest become aligned, we can help you do it. -- Fabien On 05/08/2015 11:36 PM, Caudal Eric wrote: > As far as I understood, Community edition is the current core of 280 > modules (+ / - deprecated/added modules over the versions). > > Enterprise = Community + additional modules (current paid ones with > LGPL2+NDA). > > I do not forsee any issue using the Community + OCA modules (LGPL2+AGPL3 > are compatible) but it will probably not be possible to use Enterprise + > OCA (for the NDA). > > Said so, we knew that this move was coming and current proposal still > keeps the core opensource, which is far better than other proposals I > have seen. If the value proposition of the Enterprise modules is good > enough, customers will follow. > > One point though: Odoo SA will not be able to capitalize on the > community for the Enterprise modules (and I think they dont expect it > actually). Nevertheless, the community will still be able to play a full > role in the Community edition which is not half product (this is a fully > workable ERP that most of us are using today). > > Somehow a friendly fork might naturally happen here: Community + > Enterprise vs Community + OCA with different customers target and > maintainers. > Odoo SA +Odoo community will take care of the Community > Odoo SA will obviously develop the base for Enterprise while the > Community will push the OCA alternative. > > Customer target might overlap but not necessarily. As long as the core > remains open, there is probably space for both options. Odoo SA has > actually much more to lose if Enterprise fails. In this case (which I do > not wish!), anyway, the opencore will still survive if there is enough > community to sustain it. > > Overall, I see this move as additional offer to the current options. It > might widen the current market and in extreme circumstances cannibalize > the community one if it generates enough value. > > We should not be scared of the competition but try to beat it! > > If you think the community proposition is more valuable, then hare and > contribute, create merge proposals, publish code and documentation ... > within the OCA umbrella or not :). > > > 2015-05-09 12:02 GMT+08:00 OpenERP Master <firstname.lastname@example.org > <mailto:email@example.com>>: > > Hello, > > I think it is interesting to comment on Magento, and then followup > with a statement about died open source projects. Magento has a > considerable market share of all websites in the world, and their > user base, developers, etc far surpass Odoo by several times. Most > people in the ecommerce world know what Magento is, while little > people in the ERP world know what Odoo is, to provide a basic > comparison. > > Your statements about quality seem to directly contradict the > quality and execution that exist in the code base today. My first > thought about this release was that Odoo was copying Magento's > business model. It also seems like Odoo takes a lot after Magento, > like the release of the ecommerce module, then state that it is the > "best open source ecommerce solution" which is obviously not true. > (no offense), almost to announce direct competition with Magento. > > I am not surprised that this approach is being taken, and its > probably an inevitable path as a project grows and matures. How it > impacts the community and the success of the software over time > remains to be seen. > > I see two things happening. 1, if this model is successful the core > of the program will get a lot better and there will actually be real > standard enterprise features. Or 2, the software is mainly developed > on the paid version, in which case the software would eventually be > abandoned for something else. There's emerging competition out there.... > > On Fri, May 8, 2015 at 9:17 PM, Jeffery <firstname.lastname@example.org > <mailto:email@example.com>> wrote: > > should we reference this model with redhat, like this > > odoo community == fedora (formly redhat linux) > odoo enterprise == redhat enterprise linux > odoo oca == centos > > is this right? > > On Sat, May 9, 2015 at 9:02 AM, Gunnar Wagner > <firstname.lastname@example.org> <mailto:email@example.com>> wrote: > > +1 .. but what could be the consequences? > > I somewhat doubt that the S.A.'s move is open for > discussion. The reason we (the company I am working in) > chose to go with OpenERP as our ERP-system of choice was > that it is Open Source and mainly that we think the > community is strong (in terms of technically capable AND > powerful enough to protect the Open Source nature of the > project). I strongly hope that this will prove to be true now. > > Even though I agree with what was said by Houssine earlier > (forking is not an ideal scenario and it would hurt the > product Odoo) I think it must be an option on the table. The > threat of a fork might be a sharp argument to prevent this > development (which apart from S.A. apparently nobody regards > as bringing any good to the product Odoo). Following this > discussion so far seems the Community is strongly against > segregation. At the same time I am not sure whether there is > reason for much confidence in the possibility S.A. can be > convinced with good arguments to step back from their plans. > This does not look like a rush move which eventually might > be taken back. > Taking these two points as a working theory I think the > Community needs to take action. How about extending > support/development for OCB 8.0 as a first step? > > > > > On 5/9/2015 3:36 AM, Raphaël Valyi wrote: >cite="mid:CAByrsx3WmxhEdfwuXJj=6+HnD4h_hS-6L-haA-YphQTJT1avbA@mail.gmail.com > <mailto:6%2BHnD4h_hS-6L-haA-YphQTJT1avbA@mail.gmail.com>" > type="cite"> > Hello, > > much has been said. However something has been missing I > think: it's said that Community en Enterprise versions are > not diverging. Well let me question it. > > We should remember that in 2008, OpenERP SA himself moved > the licensing from GPL to AGPL, thus creating an incentive > to create an AGPL ecosystem. As a results, dozens of company > and hundreds of developers invested in creating hundreds of > AGPL modules, including dozens of localization (as we did at > Akretion) and this is pretty much what makes Odoo attractive > on several verticals and countries. All that was also > enforcing a very specific open source business model. > > And with the OCA skyrocketing these days, everyone can > easily verify that this is a sustainable model that produce > high quality modules (better than the core by many metrics), > freedom/security both for the users and and for the open > source editors. > > Now, the non open source modules ARE NOT COMPATIBLE with > that existing AGPL license!! > > I remind you that the OCA conducted a juridic study to see > if it was possible to change the AGPL license of all these > modules, but a clear NO was given as we would never get the > agreement from all the dozens of contributors for code > contributed even previously from the OCA CLA (Contributor > License Agreement). This from a pure juridic standpoint, I'm > not even talking if that would be any interesting move or > not (many think there is much more to loose than to win with > such a move, both for the customers who will be trapped in > closed source code/freemium and for system integrators that > will be trapped in dubious commercial policies from the > closed source editors). > > And think about the kind of perversion of open source values > this is: it would mean that all the sudden, the guys that > were violating the AGPL license, that were parasiting the > ecosystem by using it without giving anything back, would > suddenly be the good guys with a cool business model for the > VC's (cause commission on it with no control over what it > will be in the future, think Apple appstore). While all the > good guys that made Odoo what it is today by enforcing the > copyleft licenses, would have no legal way to continue there > activities if the non copyleft side were to rise? > > Come on, what kind of community do you think you would > build? Imagine a country where you would suddenly free all > prisoners who violated the law and put everybody else in > jail. Will that build a better world??? Let me doubt. > > So with Odoo SA business relying on the sale of non free > modules. It's quite clear that there will be a competition > between the free AGPL ecosystem and the non free modules, a > competition between two different antagonist visions. So I > don't see where is the synergy here. > > Also, if Odoo SA is unable to work in synergy with the > community anymore, how would its business model be any more > optimized than those inefficient proprietary softwares from > the past models? > > Open source works because this is a shared work where the > cost is divided, the bureaucracy for collaboration is > minimum (but still what is established in an open source > license should be enforced and not questioned every two > years in interference with business models that didn't > apparently adhere to the initial contract). > > And note that I say that while I'm really not an open source > ayatollah. I totally understand that open source is a low > profit model that eventually doesn't match the Venture > Capital expectations (read the "there is no hockey stick > with open source" post from the Compiere ERP creator). So I > totally understand that Odoo SA could have included non open > source products in its offering. Now in my opinion if it had > non open source products, it should NEVER have been Odoo > modules. It could have been hosting services or webservices > of any nature, or mobile clients or whatever, but NOT > something that run inside the same Odoo ERP process that > that forced to hurt the licensing model upon which that > great ecosystem has been built. Hopefully it's still time to > backpedal on this to lower the obvious value destruction > associated with such move. > > My 2 cents. > > On Fri, May 8, 2015 at 3:18 PM, Mohammad Alhashash > > wrote: > > I think the there is still some confusion about the > structure of the Enterprise edition. If it is "a set of > modules on top of Odoo Community", why bug fixes will be > "forward ported to Odoo Enterprise"? Does this mean that > the community edition will act as the cutting-edge > edition of the stable enterprise version (like Fedora vs > Redhat Enterprise Linux)? On 08/05/15 19:34, Fabien > Pinckaers wrote: > Dear community, > > I understand some > of you may have joined Odoo, a few years ago, with > > another model in mind. That's not the open source model > we initialy > wanted and that's not the model we > advertised you over the past 8 years. > We even > criticised the "open core" model most open source > software are > following  and we were very proud of > being 100% open source by > refusing partners to sell > their Odoo modules. > > After having pushed this > direction for 8 years, I now think I was wrong. > This > model worked, but we can do better. And we have to do it > if we want > to raise the bar and make Odoo the world's > most used management > software. Being closed to other > model / contributors was a bad idea. > People should be > free to choose the model they want to finance their > > contributions. Since we launched the Odoo apps store, we > received a lot > of feedbacks and we are now convinced > it was a very good move. > > So, > - Do we plan to > continue investing actively in Odoo community? Yes > - > Do we plan to sell more? Yes > > Is it bad for community > members? no. Because both those objectives are > > mutually benefical to each others. As Antony explained, > Odoo Community > and Odoo Enterprise are not divergent > products. We are designing both > Github repositories so > that Odoo Enterprise relies on Odoo Community. > (or > Odoo Community becomes the foundation of Odoo > Enterprise). > > In terms of process, bugs will be fixed > in Odoo Community and forward > ported to Odoo > Enterprise. Odoo Enterprise evolutions will contribute > to > Odoo Community as all the 280 core modules are in > Odoo Community and > every improvement on those modules > will be on Odoo community (the > current scope of > version 8 will be in Odoo Community, we don't plan to > > reduce the scope of the community application) . > > > In that sense, it's more an OpenFullERP model than an > OpenCore one. And > that's what we want: > - We want > Odoo Community to be the best management software out > there > (not a secondary, unimportant product) > - We > want Odoo Enterprise to have extra features than Odoo > Community to > upsell some of our users > > Of course, > some may get frustrated within the next months. Odoo > > Enterprise will have great new features that some may > want to get for > free. But please understand that 1/ > its necessary to continue fueling > the Odoo > developments efforts like we are doing now and 2/ this > does not > change our active commitment to Odoo > Community, the open source version. > > I also think > that this increased value proposition will help us > improve > the business relationship with partners since > we will no longer have to > compete with partners on > selling services.  Both roles are more clear > with > this model: Odoo SA's role is to build a great product, > partners > role is to offer services to customers. > > > Since Odoo Enterprise is a set of modules on top of Odoo > Community, both > versions will be linked to each > others. The success of one will bring > success to the > other too. (through bugfixes or new versions) > > > Thanks, > > Fabien > >  A statement I wrote 3 years > ago: > > https://www.odoo.com/fr_FR/blog/odoo-news-5/post/our-open-source-business-model-119 > > >  If, for technical reasons, we have to remove a > module from Odoo > community because it conflicts with a > new Odoo Enterprise module, we > will give a v9 version > to the community or OCA so that you don't get > less > features with Odoo v9 (but much more since we will add a > lot of > great features in Odoo v9 community too) --> we > already know that we > will have to do this for > account_followup that we plan to remove from > Odoo > Community (because it's not clean enough). So, we will > contribute a > working version for v9 to OCA modules. > > > > > > On 05/07/2015 05:34 PM, Stephen Mack wrote: > > > Any thought about being more descriptive with the naming > to avoid confusion? > > > > If the Enterprise edition is > simply a bundle of modules why make it > > sound like > the core is different. > > > > I fully support Odoo > making paid modules but then why not name it > > > "Enterprise Feature Pack" or "Enterprise Add-on" or > anything to signify > > that the Odoo core is not > involved. > > > > Odoo Community addition sounds like a > stripped down, vanilla version of > > Odoo Enterprise > addition. > > > > I really want odoo to succeed but > please don't add fuel to the fire. > > Proudly present > Odoo as a strong product and then confidently charge for > > > Enterprise Module Features. > > > > Just my two > cents. I really don't want to be explaining the > difference > > of the two versions for years in the > forums. > > > > Humbly, > > > > --Stephen > > > > On > Thu, May 7, 2015 at 10:42 AM, Antony Lesuisse > > > >> wrote: > > > > With version 9, we will release 2 > editions of odoo: Odoo Community and Odoo > > > Enterprise. > > > > Odoo Enterprise will consist of Odoo > Community plus a set of enterprise only > > features (or > in technical term, an additional repository with extra > modules). > > > > Some new features that have been under > developement latetly will be in > > enterprise such as > electronic signature, integration with shipping > providers. > > For example the crm_voip module > (currently published as a paid app on the app > > store) > will be in the enterprise repository. However core > modules like the new > > accounting remains in the > Community version. > > > > Odoo community will be > supported as much as Odoo enterprise, Odoo Community is > > > the foundation of Odoo Enterprise and it will remain > free and open source as LGPL. > > > > For technical > users, they can access the code through the same GitHub > > > repository. The community version 9 will be at > odoo/odoo#9.0 and the > > development branch is still at > odoo/odoo#master. > > > > Odoo Enterprise users (and > partners) will have access to the enterprise > > > repository containing only the additional modules. > > > > > You might have wondered why odoo master has not been > pushed for a few weeks. > > The reason is that we had > some feature branches with those extra modules, we > > > did not want to push the merged branches as LGPL. > > > > > We are currently filtering the branch with > git-filter-branch before we can > > push it back to > master. > > > > Antony. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Mailing-List: https://www.odoo.com/groups/community-59 > > > > Post to: mailto:firstname.lastname@example.org <mailto:email@example.com> > > > Unsubscribe: https://www.odoo.com/groups?unsubscribe > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Mailing-List: https://www.odoo.com/groups/community-59 > > > Post to: mailto:firstname.lastname@example.org <mailto:email@example.com> > > > Unsubscribe: https://www.odoo.com/groups?unsubscribe > > > > > > > > > -- > > Fabien Pinckaers > > Odoo Founder > > > > Web: https://www.odoo.com > > Twitter: @fpodoo > > > > Instant Demo: https://odoo.com/start/cms > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Mailing-List: https://www.odoo.com/groups/community-59 > > Post to: mailto:firstname.lastname@example.org <mailto:email@example.com> > > Unsubscribe: https://www.odoo.com/groups?unsubscribe > > > > _______________________________________________ > Mailing-List: https://www.odoo.com/groups/community-59 > Post to: mailto:firstname.lastname@example.org > <mailto:email@example.com> > Unsubscribe: https://www.odoo.com/groups?unsubscribe > > > > > -- > Raphaël Valyi > Founder and consultant > http://twitter.com/rvalyi > +55 21 3942-2434 > www.akretion.com > > > _______________________________________________ > Mailing-List: https://www.odoo.com/groups/community-59 > Post to: mailto:firstname.lastname@example.org > Unsubscribe: https://www.odoo.com/groups?unsubscribe > > > -- > > Gunnar Wagner | Iris Germanica Ltd. | JinQian Gong Lu 385, > 8-201 | FengXian Qu, 201404 Shanghai | P.R. CHINA > +86 159 0094 1702 | +49 (0)176 7808 9090 %280%29176 7808 9090> | skype: professorgunrad | > www.fashionsupermarket.net > > _______________________________________________ > Mailing-List: https://www.odoo.com/groups/community-59 > Post to: mailto:email@example.com > <mailto:firstname.lastname@example.org> > Unsubscribe: https://www.odoo.com/groups?unsubscribe > > > > > -- > Jeffery -odoo expert form kunshan, suzhou, china > > _______________________________________________ > Mailing-List: https://www.odoo.com/groups/community-59 > Post to: mailto:email@example.com > <mailto:firstname.lastname@example.org> > Unsubscribe: https://www.odoo.com/groups?unsubscribe > > > _______________________________________________ > Mailing-List: https://www.odoo.com/groups/community-59 > Post to: mailto:email@example.com <mailto:firstname.lastname@example.org> > Unsubscribe: https://www.odoo.com/groups?unsubscribe > > > > > -- > Eric CAUDAL > +86 186 21 36 16 70 > > _______________________________________________ > Mailing-List: https://www.odoo.com/groups/community-59 > Post to: mailto:email@example.com > Unsubscribe: https://www.odoo.com/groups?unsubscribe > -- Fabien Pinckaers Odoo Founder Web: https://www.odoo.com Twitter: @fpodoo Instant Demo: https://odoo.com/start/cms
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